ATC miscommunication question

[natid82]

So! I flew in from Lancaster (LNS) to Annapolis (ANP). ATC was awesome throughout the trip! When we got close to Baltimore we were cleared through BWI's Bravo airspace (as well as entrance to the DC SFRA). Here's the communication that has me a little concerned:

We were flying at 3,500ft, Controller comes and says something that sounded like 3,500ft so I read back to him....We will maintain 3,500ft.

Controller: 5SP did you have a question?

Me: No we can maintain 3,500ft

Controller: Do you have a Bravo Clearance?

Me: Yes, We were cleared to the Bravo and SFRA at the same time (by the previous approach frequency).

Controller: When I ask you to decent to 2,500ft, I need you to do that, I have landing traffic around you.

Me: I'm sorry I heard 3,500ft, going down to 2,500ft (I did 1,000ft per minute, just to get down quickly).

This whole exchange took about 20 seconds.10 miles after, I contacted him saying we have Annapolis in sight, and we can descent even further. He said "descent at your discretion" and handed me over to ANP advisory frequency. I then read back his instruction and added "apologies for the mixup earlier"....assuming one of us didn't hear the other correctly, and hoping all is well.

Question: Did I violate any rules? or am in trouble? I did comply with the instruction once I understood the nature of the miscommunication. I was convinced I heard 3,500 at first, so I read back "We will maintain 3,500". My Garmin GPS did not show any aircraft around me while the above exchange took place.

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[NovemberEcho]

No you’re fine. Miscommunications happen.

 

[natid82]

Phew, good to know. I didn't get that dreaded number to call, which is a good sign too. First time misunderstanding and getting "yelled" at, not pleasant.

 

[Stone Cold]

File an ASAP report. This is exactly why they are there. If you didn't get a phone number, you *should* be okay. It's always best to cover your proverbial ass just in case.

Glad it was caught, and it's a learning experience to put in the bag.

 

[fholbert]

Question: Did I violate any rules? or am in trouble? I did comply with the instruction once I understood the nature of the miscommunication. I was convinced I heard 3,500 at first, so I read back "We will maintain 3,500". My Garmin GPS did not show any aircraft around me while the above exchange took place.

Cut your license in half.

Mail the right half to:

FAA
Oklahoma City, OK 73108

They'll get back with you.

 

[natid82]

Funny! Shall I send you the left half?

On a serious note, filed an NASA today, and also upgraded my AOPA membership so I am covered in the future as well, as per the recommendation of the nice people here, and my CFII

 

[natid82]

I found the ATC recording on Live ATC. Just so I know I have not learned something wrong. If a pilot is cleared to Bravo and is told to climb to 3,500, then handed off to another controller, and hears an instruction to maintain an altitude (It was vague but I could make 2,500 listening to it several times). Would you descend although the word descend was never spoken?

(all I got is Maintain 2,500), read back "Will keep 3,500" responding to the maintain portion, when the guy comes back he says descend (after asking a bunch of questions)....

Not sure I can share the audio file here, but I can direct whoever wants to hear it to the appropriate place.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Hopefully you can find the audio file. As it is, if I got an instruction to simply "maintain two thousand five hundred" and I was at 3500, I would have descended to my new instructed altitude. What did you learn different than that?

 

[natid82]

Hopefully you can find the audio file. As it is, if I got an instruction to simply "maintain two thousand five hundred" and I was at 3500, I would have descended to my new instructed altitude. What did you learn different than that?

I have the file. And listened to it several times. The 2,500 is not as clear but after a few times listening to it you can make 2,500. However I did read back, twice, “I will keep 3,500”. The controller could possibly ask me to do 2,500 seeing I have not read back correctly. He went into a question and a small statement “when I ask you to descend to 2,500, I need you to descend to 2,500”. Only the word descend was never said prior to that last statement.

It’s clear to me now, that next time I hear a conflicting message like that I will ask for a repeat, since I thought I heard 3,500, I just read back “maintain 3,500”.

After hearing the recording, it did seem like conflicting information, at least to me, which leads me to believe I should not be (if it ever happened) in any kind of trouble.

Recording is available on Live ATC.net if you go to archive > 8/8/19 > Potomac approach Final frequency at 1800z. My call sign was N755SP. I think the first interaction was around 19 minutes in, when I check in with him, most of the other interactions happen on the last three minutes of the recording.

Cheers

 

[z987k]

Hopefully you can find the audio file. As it is, if I got an instruction to simply "maintain two thousand five hundred" and I was at 3500, I would have descended to my new instructed altitude. What did you learn different than that?

I would not. If I check in at 3500 and I get a "maintain 2500" without a descend, that means someone, possibly both of us are confused. That from the controller, means he thinks you are already at 2500, which is weird because your altitude is staring him in the face. Does he think I'm a different airplane? I would then query if he wants me to descend and bring attention to the fact I am at 3500 and not 2500. Descending when the instruction is not clear can lead to a loss of separation.

We have stuff like this all the time with controllers with poor English and made worse by pilot's not using standard phraseology.
To that "I will keep" should never be said on the radio. It has no meaning.

 

[natid82]

I would not. If I check in at 3500 and I get a "maintain 2500" without a descend, that means someone, possibly both of us are confused. That from the controller, means he thinks you are already at 2500, which is weird because your altitude is staring him in the face. Does he think I'm a different airplane? I would then query if he wants me to descend and bring attention to the fact I am at 3500 and not 2500. Descending when the instruction is not clear can lead to a loss of separation.

We have stuff like this all the time with controllers with poor English and made worse by pilot's not using standard phraseology.
To that "I will keep" should never be said on the radio. It has no meaning.

Yeah! The I will keep part was not the best judgement, on my part, but I doubt it is any kind of violation. He seemed to have solid English.

You’re right I don’t know why he thought I’m at 2,500 because he can see it in front of him and I check in with him at 3,500 10 minutes prior to that, assigned by the last Potomac approach controller.

Either way, it was all sorted out in less than 30 seconds, I descended quite rapidly.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Yeah! The I will keep part was not the best judgement, on my part, but I doubt it is any kind of violation. He seemed to have solid English.

You’re right I don’t know why he thought I’m at 2,500 because he can see it in front of him and I check in with him at 3,500 10 minutes prior to that, assigned by the last Potomac approach controller.

Either way, it was all sorted out in less than 30 seconds, I descended quite rapidly.

He didn’t think you were at 2500. He wanted you to descend to 2500. Although not perfectly by the book, “climb/descend and maintain” is often left off in favor of “maintain” for brevity.

 

[natid82]

He didn’t think you were at 2500. He wanted you to descend to 2500. Although not perfectly by the book, “climb/descend and maintain” is often left off in favor of “maintain” for brevity.

Yeah, sounds like that was what he meant, but as a relatively new pilot it would have been impossible for me to assume that without specific directions.

Bottom line, listening to the audio there seemed to have been a miscommunication on both ends, that was resolved quickly. Doubt it raises to pilot deviation levels.

 

[NovemberEcho]

but as a relatively new pilot it would have been impossible for me to assume that without specific directions.

“Maintain 2500”

If above 2500, descend. If below 2500, climb. If level at 2500, maintain 2500 til advised otherwise.

You’re putting way more thought and worry into this whole situation than it warrants. You misunderstood what he said. No biggie. When you said “I keep 3500” he probably thought you were telling him to screw off and you’ll do what you like. The situation was resolved and clarified and he probably forgot all about it 10 seconds later. If you don’t get a phone number to call then you have nothing to worry about.

 

[natid82]

“Maintain 2500”

If above 2500, descend. If below 2500, climb. If level at 2500, maintain 2500 til advised otherwise.

Thanks for the clarification. Learning curve.

 

[Stone Cold]

“Maintain 2500”

If above 2500, descend. If below 2500, climb. If level at 2500, maintain 2500 til advised otherwise.

You’re putting way more thought and worry into this whole situation than it warrants. You misunderstood what he said. No biggie. When you said “I keep 3500” he probably thought you were telling him to screw off and you’ll do what you like. The situation was resolved and clarified and he probably forgot all about it 10 seconds later. If you don’t get a phone number to call then you have nothing to worry about.

If I had been given "maintain 2,500" and I was at 3,500, I would definitely ask for clarification. I know sometimes things aren't said by the book in the US, but I've seen and heard way too many questionable things with non-standard phraseology. I'm not going to ASSume any ATC instruction.

Yes, I'm the "tree", "fife" and "niner" guy, even in the US.

 

[z987k]

“Maintain 2500”

If above 2500, descend. If below 2500, climb. If level at 2500, maintain 2500 til advised otherwise.

You’re putting way more thought and worry into this whole situation than it warrants. You misunderstood what he said. No biggie. When you said “I keep 3500” he probably thought you were telling him to screw off and you’ll do what you like. The situation was resolved and clarified and he probably forgot all about it 10 seconds later. If you don’t get a phone number to call then you have nothing to worry about.

Sorry but that is piss poor phraseology. If you give me maintain 2500 when I'm at 3500 for brevity, it'll take an extra 30 seconds to confirm what you meant when you could have said descend and everyone would be on the same page.
Honestly if you give me something like that, I assume you've lost your SA and now don't trust much of anything from you until I feel like you've got a handle on things again.

 

[z987k]

If I had been given "maintain 2,500" and I was at 3,500, I would definitely ask for clarification. I know sometimes things aren't said by the book in the US, but I've seen and heard way too many questionable things with non-standard phraseology. I'm not going to ASSume any ATC instruction.

Yes, I'm the "tree", "fife" and "niner" guy, even in the US.

I've come to prefer decimal over point.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I've come to prefer decimal over point.

"Spiritwings fower fower wun request push and start at L5"

 

[z987k]

"Spiritwings fower fower wun request push and start at L5"

As long as it's festivus today.... people that request push clearance from ground in a non-movement area.