Agree. There are ways to communicate that you have an emergency, and letting ATC know that you'll get back to them when able, which of course I'm all for and I fully agree with.
ATC & Emergencies
- Thread starter shdw
- Start date
Agree. There are ways to communicate that you have an emergency, and letting ATC know that you'll get back to them when able, which of course I'm all for and I fully agree with.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean it quite like that.
Get controll of the airplane (inculding dealing with malfuncting systems)
Get headed toward a place where you can land safely
Let ATC know that there is a problem, what you are doing, and what you need from them.
However, the need to prioritize flying the airplane isn't obvious to new students. Many thyink they have to imeadiatly notify ATC and that the controller will somehow magicly save them.
:yup: All I could picture when reading this was a group of people holding one of those big trampolines like they use for fire rescue. Imagine if ATC had access to that!
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
The next communication to from me to the king air, just to cover my backside, would be "King Air 3XZ, when able, say fuel in hours and souls on board" chances are I'm busy clearing the way for you.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
See I have to slightly disagree here. A simple "3XZ declaring an emergency, standby!" would have eliminated a lot of that, and passed the important information on...that "you" are now the boss... not us, what you say goes short of t-boning another aircraft I am going to give you everything you ask for, even silence. If you're not answering radio calls your just another pilot on his laptop
not an emergency in our mind.and Semper Fi brother.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
FTFA: Fly the FRIGGIN' AIRPLANE!
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
Get the airplane under control, get headed someplace where you can make put it down, then, and only then, do you declare. Sure, wake the fire trucks, and get the guys together (though for the longest times I too have had misgivings about the e-words unless you really need it) but don't do that at the expense of flying the airplane.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
Get the airplane under control, get headed someplace where you can make put it down, then, and only then, do you declare. Sure, wake the fire trucks, and get the guys together (though for the longest times I too have had misgivings about the e-words unless you really need it) but don't do that at the expense of flying the airplane.
Do this exactly, and you'll have the best chance of survival. I think this is akin to what sully did. He flew the airplane, and gave ATC very short responses. In an actual emergency, if you don't continue to fly the airplane, who is. My life (pax. comes second, sorry, but if I survive the emergency, chances are they will to), takes priority over all else. Just fly the plane. Let ATC know that you are returning, and the nature of the emergency. If you are too busy doing other things, and ATC won't stop querying, turn the radio off.
Xcaliber
El Chupacabra
I'd like to bring a different yet related question to the mix.
When I was doing my training for the Citation at FlightSafety, we obviously did a few V1 cuts. Whenever we had a rejected takeoff, the FSI way of doing things for the PNF was to kick out the speed brakes, then notify ATC immediately that you were aborting (still at 90+ kts).
Now, since I had been flying the thing for a few months, I had already come up with my own set of rules of when I would talk on the radio during takeoff and landing. On takeoff, I wouldn't respond from the time that takeoff power was added until the gear was selected up, and on landing, from short final until the T/Rs were at idle (60 kts). There's just too much going on at a time like that to be worrying about ATC. At most, that means ATC may have to wait like 10 seconds. Taking that to the rejected t/o, that means I wouldn't worry about ATC from the time power was added, through the reject, and back till we were under 60 kts again.
Because of that, I got scolded a few times by the instructor and by the FSI trained captains I was with for not letting ATC know immediately that we had aborted. I kind of understood their points, seeing that we were practicing these in 600 RVR, but I still thought it was better to finish the procedure before telling ATC. Thoughts?
When I was doing my training for the Citation at FlightSafety, we obviously did a few V1 cuts. Whenever we had a rejected takeoff, the FSI way of doing things for the PNF was to kick out the speed brakes, then notify ATC immediately that you were aborting (still at 90+ kts).
Now, since I had been flying the thing for a few months, I had already come up with my own set of rules of when I would talk on the radio during takeoff and landing. On takeoff, I wouldn't respond from the time that takeoff power was added until the gear was selected up, and on landing, from short final until the T/Rs were at idle (60 kts). There's just too much going on at a time like that to be worrying about ATC. At most, that means ATC may have to wait like 10 seconds. Taking that to the rejected t/o, that means I wouldn't worry about ATC from the time power was added, through the reject, and back till we were under 60 kts again.
Because of that, I got scolded a few times by the instructor and by the FSI trained captains I was with for not letting ATC know immediately that we had aborted. I kind of understood their points, seeing that we were practicing these in 600 RVR, but I still thought it was better to finish the procedure before telling ATC. Thoughts?
This is a situation where, IMO, giving a quick "Citation XXX, aborting" pre-emptive call shouldn't hurt. You don't have to expand beyond that until you're comfortable, but in a situation like that, it would help ATC to send someone around who may be on a shorter final in a timely manner, and really shouldn't take too much of your SA away to get out that simple call. On an abort, you're the emergency, but ATC also has to jump through hoops possibly, traffic wise. That's why the quick heads-up helps more than it hurts. IMHO.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Pretty much I'm with MikeD on that one. I've been on short final with guys beginning the takeoff roll before the quick abort call in a timely manner would make all the difference. I don't wanna land on you and I'm sure you don't want that either! The abort is probably one of the few cases I would advoctae almost an immediate radio call.
I would agree with the above two. When we fly we always have one hand on the yoke, right next to the mic. Now I have not flown any of the big complex planes, but I would hope that remains true for them as well. As long as your not spinning out of control, fighting to get the aircraft back, you, IMO, have handled step one: fly the airplane. My step two is declare. Not necessarily give details, but like Mike said, "<aircraft> xxx declaring emergency.>
I can't imagine that there would be anytime, when you are under control, that this call cannot help you. You don't have to reply back to the controller questions. If they bug you so much, keying up to say standby, again, I wouldn't imagine, would be too much. But at the very least they can start working traffic around you. Anyways, just my low experience 02 here, maybe it will change in the future.
I can't imagine that there would be anytime, when you are under control, that this call cannot help you. You don't have to reply back to the controller questions. If they bug you so much, keying up to say standby, again, I wouldn't imagine, would be too much. But at the very least they can start working traffic around you. Anyways, just my low experience 02 here, maybe it will change in the future.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Me too.
"Aviate - navigate - communicate" are matters of priority. But a lot of the responses seem to suggest that doing one of them must always be at the expense of the other. That's just not so. It depends a lot on the emergency.
There are obviously situations where you have to fly the airplane at the expense of everything else. Damn right that if I end up with asymetrical flaps as I retract them on a short field takeoff I'm probably not going be calling anyone while a wrestle with the uncontrollable. In that situation, I'm probably not going to be too concerned with "navigate" either – I probably only care about crashing under the best aircraft control I can.
But I'm hoping that most of us can, in many emergency situations maintain control of the airplane while choosing an option and navigating to it and get both of those under control and hit that little button to ask for help.
Engine failure at altitude in mountainous terrain? None of us should fly into a mountain side because he thought that keeping upright was important to the exclusion of turning toward lower terrain, or die of exposure because he could not manage to let someone know we needed help while we were still high enough to communicate.
The relative priority of "aviate, navigate, communicate" does not mean "flying the airplane is important and nothing else is."
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
It's not.
Just as a point of interest. In my one emergency declaration, part of the aftermath was a call from ATC - to ask if I was okay and to ask whether ATC was helpful or distracting. So apparently someone is paying attention to that issue as well.
They declared a bird strike with all thrust lost and returning only seconds after it happened. Within 5 seconds they had a return heading. Again, maybe I am taking this too literally, but here is my thought on a takeoff engine loss:
Step 1: (WWII pilot recommendation) LOWER THE NOSE! and fly the airplane.
Step 2: (While returning to the airport) Tower xxx emergency need trucks
From there, let them figure it out. They can clear the way bring out the trucks and maximize my chances for survival should my landing not be perfect. I will get medical help as quickly as possible.
A simple key up to say anything can help though, here is an example:
I was in the run-up area when a guy on a student solo (near license thankfully) had an engine loss on short final at 200 or so feet. First thing he did was key up and say, "I am going in the field."
As soon as he got off the radio I keyed up, "Do not stall (or watch airspeed, can't remember) - Will (FBO desk operator) call 911 we have an aircraft with an engine failure landing in the field short of 28."
He came back asking what, for which I repeated. We had helicopter traffic on sight (the CFI had first response experience) in under 30 seconds. I was down the runway, in my truck and there maybe a minute later. Needless to say, if he needed any help he got it in under a minute after landing. This was an uncontrolled field without emergency response teams.
It took about 5-10 minutes to have police, ambulance, and others there.
Edit: Aircraft totaled/pilot fine. Crashed into light brush, between trees at or just above stall speed.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
^ Good on you for offering assistance, though I would caution against jumping in his cockpit without prompting. It is common wingman/lead courtesy if an aircraft in a flight develops a problem......ie they will let you know when they need advice/checklist backup/etc, and I'd say this carries over with ATC/other uninvolved aircraft. If I am dealing with an engine failure, trying to set up to put it down or eject, and also trying to let ATC know what's up, I don't really want a bunch of well-intentioned chatter in the background.
Agreed about letting tower know what is going on with an abort.....I've never flown an aircraft that didn't have the mic key either on the stick/yoke or the throttle, both places where your hands should be during an abort. At my home field, SOP is for tower to switch you to departure freq upon t/o clearance so since I am already up with them, I'd just give them a heads up and then switch up to tower once I got the aircraft under control....just another little non-standard situation to think about anyway.
Agreed about letting tower know what is going on with an abort.....I've never flown an aircraft that didn't have the mic key either on the stick/yoke or the throttle, both places where your hands should be during an abort. At my home field, SOP is for tower to switch you to departure freq upon t/o clearance so since I am already up with them, I'd just give them a heads up and then switch up to tower once I got the aircraft under control....just another little non-standard situation to think about anyway.
In my defense, I knew he was a student pilot, I knew he had at least 30, maybe 40 flaps in, and I knew he was 200' or lower making a 180 degree to land in that field. But I think I see what you mean, yapping in their ear can cause stress, making it worse, instead of better?
On another note, to all of you here, I personally don't care who it is and you guys can do this for me. If you see me lose an engine, tell me to watch stall, it is a simple and stupid thing, but easily forgot by far to many GREAT pilots. I will greatly appreciate the 2 word reminder.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah I just meant in a general sense...I think what you did given the circumstances was probably helpful rather than annoying. And I will be the first to admit that I have lost sight of the "big picture" before after getting tunnel vision trying to troubleshoot some comparatively minor problem/annoyance. Actually in last month's Flying there was a great article written by an F-15 pilot about this very issue......he was a new pilot, dash-8 in an IMC radar rendezvous, and ended up having problems with his radar on departure. Rather than flying the airplane and realizing that he had experienced a serious air data computer failure (causing frozen primary flight indicator failure on his MFD's) he continued to troubleshoot the radar all the way into getting into an unusual attitude in night IMC conditions. The guy was able to live to tell about it and recovered the jet in triple digits of altitude, but it is a good example of letting the little things keep you from flying the airplane.
Yes. This is the point I've been trying to get across......fly first.....and if you have that relatively controlled (different for every pilot/situation) then take care of what more you can such as comm, checklists, etc. Essentially: Maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation and take the appropriate acton, reference checklist(s) and communicate as time and conditions permit.
clestudentpilot
Well-Known Member
Maybe someone pointed this out and I didn't see it, so sorry if that's the case. ATC can also declare an emergency for you without you ever saying that to them. The "e" word doesn't have to be said by the pilot for an emergency to be declared, and I was told as a general rule, as a controller, to not inform the pilot you are declaring one on his behalf, because you might not know exactly what is going on, and you don't want to make a bad situation worse by having a pilot argue or whatever about it if they don't think it is necessary. An example I know, and I know in this case the pilot was unable to inform ATC of his emergency, is a pilot I know had a total electrical failure after departure and had just entered the soup about 2 or 300 feet ago. This was before a lot of guys had hand-helds, and it was at night. He said he first got his flashlight on the attitude indicator, started a shallow decent, got out of the soup, and turned back towards the airport at about 400 AGL. He landed on the runway he took of on, and said the equipment was out because ATC didn't know what was going on, they just knew someone who departed 2 minutes prior was returning, and they couldn't establish communication with him. This was also at a busy Class B airport. He landed without incident.
This is just an example though, how ATC declared an emergency on his behalf, even though they never heard the "e" word.
This is just an example though, how ATC declared an emergency on his behalf, even though they never heard the "e" word.