ATC & Emergencies
- Thread starter shdw
- Start date
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
I would like to throw in the note that the request for an emergency aircraft /shouldn't/ be granted if the action will endanger other aircraft. But for everything that ATC is to do for emergency aircraft there is chapter 10 of the 7110.65S (http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.65S.pdf)
That is what I was looking for. I have been told all kind of things in this regard. You get a separate frequency, their full attention, vectoring planes around you, and tons of other random things. I just want to know what the official ruling is on what they can give.
I am not sure, with your first post, what other things you might be looking for. Do you mean what kind of emergency? If so, I mean all kinds that a private pilot can get themselves into. Is it different based on the emergency? At this time I am not interested in anything beyond the private pilot. Thanks again.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
This might be a good place to point out that ATC can provide you with extra services even without saying the E word over the radio. I've had a good handful of emergencies in my time, and I don't recall ever actually declaring an emergency (though I have been the recipient of "the equipment" upon touchdown several times). Among the tools in ATC's box are radar vectors, discrete freq's, priority handling, help with wx advisories and figuring out the places that may still be above mins, and just generally being there to help you out if you fess up. This is a key point....I remember being a dumb freshly minted private pilot on a solo ccx in a Piper Warrior over the mountains in Southern OR, headed to N CA. Took off from Medford, should have probably looked more closely at the wx forecasts, and as soon as I got up to cruise altitude, I could see that the coast was fully socked in....there went trying to get into Crescent City. So I decided to divert back to the valley, but the high layer above me closed down a lot faster than I thought it would. I ended up low enough down between mountains dodging clouds that I couldn't get a reliable VOR fix. Not really being sure about my position, I finally fessed up to ATC, they got radar contact and gave me a good vector back to home field. Made it in minutes before a big line of storms washed over the field and everything went IMC. No emergency declaration, but they sure saved my butt that time! A number of lessons learned, but it was also a good example of what ATC can do for you when you are in a bind. Try that with a place like Socal or Washington approach and you probably wouldn't get as much help, but I think you get the idea.
Guy
Well-Known Member
....... and of course, things don't always work as planned for a lot of reasons and humans do make mistakes. Read the details of the ATC side of the NWA overflight of MSP and you get the picture.
A good read is the January 25, 1990, Avianca Flight 52 crash in New York. ATC procedures have changed or been better defined since then, but from a pilot's perspective, the lesson learned is ask for help and don't be bashful about repeating the request to each new controller.
A good read is the January 25, 1990, Avianca Flight 52 crash in New York. ATC procedures have changed or been better defined since then, but from a pilot's perspective, the lesson learned is ask for help and don't be bashful about repeating the request to each new controller.
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
I will admit, I've had pilots call me up 15 miles away from the airport, with an issue like a fuel gauge that is showing he is empty, but his engine is running good. I have had "the equipment" in position, and when I told Crash Rescue to hold short, and the pilot came back yelling at me. I told him, it is a standard precaution, and if he was leaking fuel on my runway, I needed those guys out there for clean up anyways. Moral is, if we (controllers) feel it is an emergency, we will treat you as such. Oh and the guy, just had a bad gauge.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Guy sounds like a weirdo.....if ATC wants to give me the benefit of the doubt and send out some back-up (even if I don't ask for it), I see no harm in that. I'm going to guess here that most airport fire crews don't have a whole lot going on during the day, so it is probably good training for them anyways.
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
Yeah. He was one of those pilots. But he is a pilot, and I am sworn to help me and protect him to the fullest extent of my abilities.
Agreed. Just wanted to toss this out there too, while we are on this discussion. One of the instructors at DWC, a retired USAF test pilot said one of his biggest pet peeves with non-military aviation is people are too scared to declare an emergency. He went on to tell us that pretty much anytime they had an issue, no matter how small, they declared an emergency and dealt with the paper work. I agree. Why wouldn't you?
What do the rest of you think, especially you military guys/gals. Was he on par?
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I remember an old sim instructor of mine telling me that "if you aren't going to declare an emergency, then keep your problems to yourself"....in other words, if you feel like the problem is serious enough to want to advise ATC, then you probably have an emergency. I still think there are certain less serious situations where making an advisory call would probably be more appropriate than declaring an emergency, but I do agree with the spirit of his message. On the military side of the house, it seems like emergencies are a little bit more common than with our civilian friends, but I would probably attribute that to the extra complexity and wear and tear on our aircraft rather than being quicker to throw out the E word than anyone else. I have yet to say the words in a military jet, though I have had a few incidents where it would probably have been warranted.....in all honesty I was too busy dealing with the problem, and asking for what I wanted from ATC, to remember to make it official.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
One huge thing to remember about ATC and emergencies.
They can't help you with job #1. That is flying the plane. Don't waste time telling ATC about your problem before you "aviate" or "navigate". The controller in the tower can't fly the plane for you and they can't amend the laws of physics for you.
Calling ATC is one of the LAST things you should do in an emergency.
They can't help you with job #1. That is flying the plane. Don't waste time telling ATC about your problem before you "aviate" or "navigate". The controller in the tower can't fly the plane for you and they can't amend the laws of physics for you.
Calling ATC is one of the LAST things you should do in an emergency.
I'm glad to see more and more civilian pilots willing to declare an emergency when needed, or even when unsure, rather than hold off due to some fear of "the FAA", or "paperwork." Many civilians I've seen almost need to be dragged kicking and screaming before they use the "dreaded E word." Unfortunately, many of these types of civilian pilots still exist. And, there is nothing wrong with ATC exercising some initiative and leaning-forward on a precautionary situation that could easily become an emergency.
Now, taking my flying hat off, and putting my (former and current) ARFF firefighter hat on, here are the reasons I'd want a pilot to declare an emergency if there's any reason he thinks he needs to (precautionary such as one-engine out, to the most serious). I brief this same brief to crews at forest fires when my truck is on contract as the helibase/helispot ARFF vehicle; though they normally don't have the same reservations the average GA pilot has in declaring.
- It's why I exist at the airport. It's why the fire trucks are there. It's what I'm trained to do. The trucks and station aren't just an airfield decoration. Use us.
- By expecting you (as a result of a declaring an emergency), I sometimes have more time to prepare for your arrival, rather than you impacting on the airport and I have to get the call (if I didn't witness it), bunker up in the prox gear, roll out of the station, and get to you. Add even more time to that if you've impacted outside the airfield boundary someplace.
- Even if I roll out to the ramp and stage for you, and it turns out to be a non-event, I've still gotten some good training out of it. I've been able to quickly gear up, and get out of the station; checking the time from the call-out to when I'm ready and in-place for you and being able to double-check my response times. All good training for me, even if nothing happens.
- If something does happen, I'm there. From fire suppression, to extrication/rescue, to medical. There will be a minimum delay.
- If you declare an emergency, and you see no further need for it, then cancel the emergency with ATC. Generally, I'll probably still meet you at end of runway or in parking (depending on the nature of the emergency) to make a cursory look-over of your aircraft, and depending on the jurisdiction involved, may have to formally release you from the emergency. But either is no big deal at all.
So use us. We appreciate the business.
See I disagree with that. There is a great deal they can do. You can handle the emergency while they give you any navigation needed. Heck you can ask them to advise you of anything greater than 500 FPM descent/climb if your attempting to remain relatively level. There is plenty they can do for you to act as a back up. Maybe it is my lack of experience with the big birds, but that 500 FPM request would have saved at least one major accident I can think of.
USMCMech is saying don't sacrifice aircraft control in order to get communications out. Fly first. Declaring an emergency isn't a one-call act, it'll take multiple communications back and forth to get who you are, where you are, nature of emergency, intentions, fuel/souls on board, etc. It can be a bit timely, and depending on the circumstance you find yourself in, it can be easy or it can be difficult. So don't sacrifice flying the plane to do it, do it when you safely can. And that, like everything, will depend.
Ahh, I took it to literally be the "last" thing. My order of ops is:
Fly the airplane
Declare the emergency giving whatever info I have time for. Doesn't mean fully describe it, but let them know something is up.
Deal with the emergency
Explain/request what I need when able
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I had an incident several months back where I took a birdstrike down the side of the nosecone on departure right in the middle of getting the rest of my division joined up on me. Most of the comms we made were coordinating with the rest of my flight so that they didn't have a midair with me and making sure they knew what was going on as I was maneuvering back towards the field. We just simply let tower know what had happened and that we were going to be orbiting overhead at x-thousand ft for a few minutes to do a controllability check. Had the bird gone down the intake, we would have probably not gotten a word out to them before we had to eject. We were pretty busy troubleshooting and reconfiguring for a precautionary approach and ended up just informing them that we were headed for low key and would be full stopping. They rolled the fire trucks anyway, as they knew the implications of a single engine jet taking a bird down the nose. We could have made a textbook emergency call and wasted a bunch of brain matter in the exchange with them, but the more important thing was keeping an eye on the engine and getting the thing on deck ASAP. ATC had no trouble getting the message on that one.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
This is an actuall radio call I heard at SAT when a KingAir had an engine failure.
SAT twr: "Kingair 3XZ contact depature"
SAT twr: "Kingair 3XZ contact depature"
SAT twr: "Kingair 3XZ contact depature"
3XZ: "Shut up damit, we're busy!"
About 30 seconds later the Kingair called back with an engine failure and they were declareing an emergency and would to return to the field.
Good experianced controllers know to let the pilot innitiate most of the comunication durring an emergency. However rookie controllers can and will ad to the pilots workload by trying find out a lot of information that may or may not help. I really don't need wind updates every 30 seconds, and I have enough fuel to start a nice bonfire if I don't make it to the runway.
If there is time, then I'll be happy to give ATC all that info. But, if I lose an engine on takeoff, ATC is the last thing on my mind.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I sort of read "last thing" the way shdw did.
Obviously fly first. But letting ATC know about the problem can be an important safety issue. Consider being in IMC in an loss of power emergency ATC can be a very important partner in moving traffic out of the way and discussing diversionary options. Not quite as important as maintaining control of the airplane, but pretty far up the chain of importance.