ATC Clearance-what do you guys think?

pscraig

pscraig

Well-Known Member
Say you're flying a leg from LGA to CLE at FL250, and the Chardon VOR (CXR) is on the flight plan. You know that you will be told to cross Chardon at 10000, from experience. Usually you are told to "cross Chardon at and maintain 10000" but on this day, the controller just tells you to "cross Chardon at 10000" but omits the "and maintain" part of the phrase. Now everything I have been taught tells me that's a crossing restriction to plan for, and I have not been cleared to descend yet. Including the words "and maintain" is a clearance to descend, but that's not what the controller said. So I maintain my present altitude and await a clearance to descend. A couple of minutes pass and the controller calls us and is furious, he expected us to start descending already and gives us a vector for the descent, and it's going to be tight. Not wanting to get into a pissing contest on an already busy center frequency we just do as he asks. The captain says I should have started descending when we received the original crossing restriction since that's how it is always done, but I am not about to start a descent without a clearance.

Perhaps one of the ATC guys here could give me some insight, but it sounds like the controller just forgot to say a few words, but a few crucial words. The captain still maintains I should have started a descent, but I don't feel comfortable second guessing ATC. Any thoughts?
 
"cross Chardon at 10000"

This to me means just that, cross that VOR at that altitude, not above or below it but specifically at 10,000. Just my thought, we'll see what others think.
 
Uhhh, why didn't your captain speak up if he knew you were supposed to descend and you didn't? I can't believe he'd let you bust an altitude restriction just for giggles if he knew about it. The capts. I've flown with watch me like a hawk, especially on arrivals with crossing restrictions like the dylin into EWR. I know the left seat is a lot of responsibility, but sheesh, we're here to help, no need to cover-up if you missed something, especially if we missed it too.

When a controller wants you to start descending NOW to a new altitude, they will say "Descend and Maintain One-Zero Thousand", not "Cross Chardon at 10,000". To me, "Cross Chardon at 10,000" means you can start descending whenever you like as long as you can be at 10,000 when you get there.
When the controller came back to you (angry) with vectors, about how far from Chardon were you? Could you still have crossed chardon at 10, even with the thrust levers at idle, red line, and speed brakes? If you could, then you did nothing in violation of FAR's, although ATC typically expects us to descend at 3 degrees from what I understand.

"Cross Chardon at and maintain 10,000" is a little redundant to me, and you certainly don't need to hear the "and maintain" part in order to start your descent.

All in all, no worries man. I screwed up the Dylin a bit a few weeks ago but luckily ATC was friendly about it. Live and learn. One thing I've picked up on....when in doubt, ask the question.
 
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Uhhh, why didn't your captain speak up if he knew you were supposed to descend and you didn't?

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That was my first thought. It also sounds like to me they just wanted you to be at 10,000 when you crossed it. Maybe somebody was having a bad day or somethin
 
The CA told me he wasn't going to let it get out of hand, but was going to let me try to handle it. The reason I didn't start down is I've been given crossing restrictions ahead of time by controllers but not cleared for descent, so in this case I figured the controller was giving me a heads up. In this case Chardon was not the next waypoint (we were outside YNG). If CXR *was* the next waypoint I can see how I would be expected to descend, but this was quite far out and I don't like guessing what ATC intended. This was all last week with bad wx in CLE, and they had everyone slowed way down and going out over the lake for the ILS.

I would expect a phrase like "descend at pilots descretion and maintain 10000" or something like that if it was up to us, and a standard "descend and maintain 10000" if he wants us down now. To simply give me a crossing restriction and have me guess when you want me to start down is ambiguous.

We didn't bust a restriction, and flight idle got us down in time.

Found the pilot/controller glossary online, here's what I found:

CROSS (FIX) AT (ALTITUDE)- Used by ATC when a specific altitude restriction at a specified fix is required.


MAINTAIN-

a. Concerning altitude/flight level, the term means to remain at the altitude/flight level specified. The phrase "climb and" or "descend and" normally precedes "maintain" and the altitude assignment; e.g., "descend and maintain 5,000."
 
Not a good day in the life of an Irishman eh?!
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(Inside joke)...
 
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Now everything I have been taught tells me that's a crossing restriction to plan for, and I have not been cleared to descend yet. Including the words "and maintain" is a clearance to descend <snip>

The captain says I should have started descending when we received the original crossing restriction since that's how it is always done, but I am not about to start a descent without a clearance.

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The clearance to descend came when they told you to cross Chardon at 10,000. If they're telling you to expect something, you'll hear the word "expect."

If you hear cross anything at XXX altitude, I wouldn't hesisitate to descend, as long as they didn't say "expect." When in doubt, ask.

My $.02
 
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Say you're flying a leg from LGA to CLE at FL250, and the Chardon VOR (CXR) is on the flight plan. You know that you will be told to cross Chardon at 10000, from experience. Usually you are told to "cross Chardon at and maintain 10000" but on this day, the controller just tells you to "cross Chardon at 10000" but omits the "and maintain" part of the phrase. Now everything I have been taught tells me that's a crossing restriction to plan for, and I have not been cleared to descend yet. Including the words "and maintain" is a clearance to descend, but that's not what the controller said. So I maintain my present altitude and await a clearance to descend. A couple of minutes pass and the controller calls us and is furious, he expected us to start descending already and gives us a vector for the descent, and it's going to be tight. Not wanting to get into a pissing contest on an already busy center frequency we just do as he asks. The captain says I should have started descending when we received the original crossing restriction since that's how it is always done, but I am not about to start a descent without a clearance.

Perhaps one of the ATC guys here could give me some insight, but it sounds like the controller just forgot to say a few words, but a few crucial words. The captain still maintains I should have started a descent, but I don't feel comfortable second guessing ATC. Any thoughts?

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You were cleared for the descent. Check out chapter four of the AIM. It specifically states that in this clearance that you are authorized to descent at pilot's discretion to cross the VOR at the assigned altitude.
 
I agree, "Expect" would precede a heads-up statement, the statement without "maintain" in that "Cross CXR at 10,000" means just that, I don't care when you start decending but be at 10,000 by CXR.

In UK and Euro ATC terminology the maintain is not usually used in a descent, climb or heading instruction unless it is a response or diffrent instruction, in other words a UK ATC would normally only expect to say "Descend to FL100" or "Cross CXR at 10,000" he might add "descend at pilot's discretion to be 10,000 by CXR"; but the and maintain is not a requirement to initiate the altitude change. The only time I've heard maintain in ATC outside US is in these scenarios:-

You are approaching a fix where you're flight plan gives a change of heading. ATC calls you and requests "Maintain Present Heading" meaning don't turn at the next fix.

The other is aircraft calls onto a busy sector expecting a further climb after leaving the airport's deprature controller, so you'd get:
"New York Center, AALxxx, with you though 11,000 for 13,000"
"AALxxx, NY Center, roger, maintain 11,000 for now, expect further climb in x minutes"

In other words, stop climbing

Obviously the sector is busy so you are told to maintain that altitude and not to climb.

In both these scenarios maintain is used only to cancel a previous instruction, or expected next action.

I don't understand why you need "Climb and maintain FL240" and "Climb FL240" is sufficient. Sure if you have FL290 filed you might question if a further climb is to be expected, but the instruction in itself is clear enough. Why waste words, especially in busy sectors?

Just my 2 pennies worth.
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Yeah you screwed up. Dont matta if its 8 fixes down the road, you cross it at that altitude. But your big lesson should be, is if you have some doubt start talking about it to someone, either the dude beside you or key the mike yourself. The capt probably was watching, but this typically isnt a confusing thing, but you know what they say about assuming. Im not sure where your mind got off track, as posted before "expect" is the heads-up. Or like going into SDF youll get (while at FL240) decide and maintain FL220, Cross Darby at One-One Thousand. (At this point there is sometimes a fix inbetween darby too, Unkle I believe, if youre coming from Yocky). So in this case you have to go to 220. Then you can wus it on down to 11,000 or you can waitat 220 for a while and then do a bonzai dive, or something in between. Fill out an NASA or ASAP if you screwed up bad enough.
 
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Fill out an NASA or ASAP if you screwed up bad enough.

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Nah, we got down in time so there was no need to file any reports.

B767Driver-Thanks for that AIM reference, I think that's what I have been looking for and it really made it clear.
 
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