ASAP for FO

[grnclvrs]

The problem here is that guys that fly like that know they are doing it "better" than the right way and when the check airman shows up for the line check/observation he will fly all the speeds exactly as published. If you don't want to turn him in to pro standards or file an ASAP, file a NASA report. They are de-identified and protect you.

On a side note, any time you file an ASAP you should also file a NASA. They're free and online now.

 

[DV8Pilot]

On a side note, any time you file an ASAP you should also file a NASA. They're free and online now.

Why? NASA forms are great if you don't have an ASAP program, but if your company has an ASAP program in place why the need to file a NASA form?

 

[Richman]

Hi Gran,

The most important thing you can do in a case like this is "use the system". It protects you, and shows that you can follow protocol.

First, I would most certainly file the ASAP. No brainer.

Second, I'd call pro stands. You MIGHT want to speak with some of the other FOs he's flown with to see if they've had similar experiences.

Now, depending on your airline, there is pro stands, and there is Pro Stands.

One is essentially filler standing in for a real committee, and you may or may not get any satisfaction and they may or may not have any power or influence to do anything.

The other is seriously committed to reigning in the ass hats before something bad happens. They have the ear and the respect of the training department and the chief pilot's office.

The last two ALPA groups I've worked with had a SERIOUS Professional Standards committees. Assuming that your group is the same, chances are when you call, you WON'T be the first person who has called about this guy...not by a long shot. In fact, when you drop the guy's name, you'll practically be able to hear the Pro Stand guy's eyes roll as he thinks "him again".

I won't go into what Pro Stands does at this point. It really all depends on the situation, the committee, the people involved, how tight they are with the chief pilot/training, how many times this has come up before...a whole slew of things.

If you DON'T get any satisfaction, and the problem STILL exists, then you have successfully jumped the required hoops, then you can bid around the guy or failing that, call the Chief Pilot and say you won't fly with the guy. Make sure you have exhausted all of your legitimate options before that last. You want a "paper trail" showing you followed the protocol.

Richman

 

[BobDDuck]

Now, depending on your airline, there is pro stands, and there is Pro Stands.

Unfortunately this is a pro stands sort of operation. Not to air too much dirty laundry, but in the past, cases that have had months or years worth of pro stands reports have been taken off line only after a training department guy happened to fly with the offending captain and couldn't understand how the guy was still on line flying.

I would love to work for an outfit that has Pro Stands and a Union mentality where if you are a "bad" union pilot (open time , constantly mooching off people on overnights, etc etc) your name gets out there as such and bad things happen.

 

[kellwolf]

Unfortunately this is a pro stands sort of operation. Not to air too much dirty laundry, but in the past, cases that have had months or years worth of pro stands reports have been taken off line only after a training department guy happened to fly with the offending captain and couldn't understand how the guy was still on line flying.

Even if it is just a pro stands vs Pro Stands operation, I agree that the proper hoops should be jumped through. The "paper trail" argument is a good one, ESPECIALLY in a CYA company.

 

[derg]

Got a captain that will not fly the RNAV speeds despite it being on the plate and the training department instructions. We have had 4 Yellow TAs in two trips, and ATC has told us to expedite to 250 as spacing was getting bad. I have to watch to see if someone is coming up and have pleaded, shown the plate. Flew the RNAV profiles on my legs and hinted after hinted. The guy has a complex about being right to out it right and he if he didnt see it first it aint right. I had to literally hand him a plate that shows he had been putting in the wrong MAP altitude for 5 months after a revision. I don't want to get him in trouble, but I don't want to get violated too, just because he is what he is. Can I file an ASAP when despite my best efforts short of hostililty in the cockpit (with this guy it would be ascreaming match) and being accused of being insubordinate what can I do. I am to the point I think I will have to fill out an aSAP to CMOA. What can be done? He won't budge? Help I don't want to get violated. I don't want to be a horses rear, but really it is a concern. Help please

1. File an ASAP immediately.
- Violations under Part 121 are issued in pairs and you don't want to go down that road.
2. Talk to professional standards

 

[wheelsup]

And Justin, yes, we require both pilots to file an ASAP for both people to be covered. It's mostly because people were filing really dumb ASAPs and this was the Fed's way of cutting down on dumb stuff.

But this guy doesn't care about both people, he cares about himself. I assume filing an ASAP protects only him, correct?

 

[C150J]

file a NASA report. They are de-identified and protect you.

This is a common misconception, and one I only recently learned about. NASA ASRS forms will only prevent you from getting suspended/revoked/fined, NOT violated. The FAA can still leverage an enforcement action against you. ASAP will protect you from enforcement action, and will result in an ASAP LoC/Low/Counseling, which is completely confidential (non-PRIAable and non-FOIAable).

When you file a NASA form, you are sent a receipt of your report. This is the ONLY proof available (the forms are now handled by MITRE Corp.), and you will have to present this to the FAA should an investigation occur. On the other hand, ASAP programs "intercept" pilot deviation reports (-17s), and do a much better job of protecting you. That being said, I always recommend simultaneously filing a NASA for data collection purposes.

Here's more info: http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181881-1.html

 

[C150J]

But this guy doesn't care about both people, he cares about himself. I assume filing an ASAP protects only him, correct?

At most shops that I'm familiar with (yours included), an ERC/ERT would HAPPILY accept a report like this. Most MOUs have some flexibility in language allowing for such instances, but Ethan's shop might be different. I do understand his POI's motivations, but we solved the problem differently. If we get a single report, we immediately request a report from the other crewmember... it's up to them to submit it, but if they don't and it's non sole source, there are of course consequences.

 

[Richman]

This is a common misconception, and one I only recently learned about. NASA ASRS forms will only prevent you from getting suspended/revoked/fined, NOT violated. The FAA can still leverage an enforcement action against you. ASAP will protect you from enforcement action, and will result in an ASAP LoC/Low/Counseling, which is completely confidential (non-PRIAable and non-FOIAable).[/url]

This is true, and a VERY subtle distinction. A lot of guys think a NASA form provides an equal level of protection.

At most shops that I'm familiar with (yours included), an ERC/ERT would HAPPILY accept a report like this. Most MOUs have some flexibility in language allowing for such instances, but Ethan's shop might be different. I do understand his POI's motivations, but we solved the problem differently. If we get a single report, we immediately request a report from the other crewmember... it's up to them to submit it, but if they don't and it's non sole source, there are of course consequences.

Some ERTs are different. Ideally, if you have a good, healthy ASAP program running that pilots trust, people will start to file reports for things not associated with a particular incident as a CYA (albeit never a bad thing), but rather serious safety items that need attention.

Those blindingly, painfully blue LED taxyway lights are a really good example.

In the case of general safety concerns, one person may feel it's an issue, and another may not want to bother.

Richman

 

[kellwolf]

Some ERTs are different. Ideally, if you have a good, healthy ASAP program running that pilots trust, people will start to file reports for things not associated with a particular incident as a CYA (albeit never a bad thing), but rather serious safety items that need attention.

Those blindingly, painfully blue LED taxyway lights are a really good example.

In the case of general safety concerns, one person may feel it's an issue, and another may not want to bother.

Richman

We get around the deluge of ASAPs a different way at my company. We've got two reports:ASAP and a FSR (flight safety report). ASAPs are used when a violation may have occurred and go through the whole de-identification process/gatekeeper. FSRs are not deidentified, and they serve to report on safety issues where a violation hasn't occurred. The nifty thing is, it's the same form on-line, you just check a different box. Now, the question you have to ask yourself when checking the box is "Do I want my CP (or Director of Flying in our case) to see my name on this report?" If the answer is "Not really" click ASAP. If the answer is "Yes, this is a safety concern that I want to see addressed," click FSR. Another level we have for things not related to safety (ie ramp procedures, a more efficient way of doing things, etc) is a crew communication report. The problem with these is you rarely get any feedback on any reports you send. For example, you can crew comm an unprofessional scheduler 8 or 10 times, and they'll still be there 6 months from then doing the exact same things. When you press the issue with the supervisor, you can't tell if the crew comms made it to the proper management people or got lost in a black hole. Not....that, ya know, I'd know this from experience or anything....

 

[BobDDuck]

The issue we have is the ASAP reports go to an ERC that meets once a month and takes action on stuff. Ops Reports (which are for non violation issues) go into a deep dark hole and are mostly never heard about again. Granted, now that our DO has been fired, once we get a new DO in place the ops reports may start holding some value again.

The ASAP MOU changed about 2 years ago to require both pilots to file. The Feds were being pretty good about protecting both guys if only one filed but as of late they have been less so about it. Our Union guys work hard to get the other guy to file if they get a single report but we have a lot of Dinosaurs here who refuse to get with the times and thing the best defense is not talking.

 

[Cav]

As others have said fill out an ASAP immediately as it is the only thing that covers you for what has already occurred. Whether he fills one out or not should not alter your decision to do so. Tell him you filled one out and why.

Finally, a call to Pro Stands is a must. Beyond the obvious reasons of addressing the actions of a rouge captain and starting the correction process, it is in my opinion a vital first step before what may be your last resort which is removing yourself from the trip.

Bottom line, you need to make sure several things don't happen in no particular order: 1) you don't get violated. 2) you don't pass this guy off to the next FO. 3) you don't become a passenger in this guys cockpit.

IF you choose to fly with guy again you need to assert yourself. The time for dropping "hints" is long gone. You need to listen to every word of his brief, ask a question or two, if it's to short ask for more, and add/amend as necessary WITH as much proof of your statement as is available. If you feel unable doing this then you should not fly because you've become a passenger in his cockpit.

I've been forced to make a call to Pro Stands once before. No one wants to do it but it's a great program which in my experience almost always works to the advantage of both parties involved. If you want the story or want an honest opinion PM me.

It's times like these that an FO's job is often tougher than a the CA's. You'll feel better having done something about it. Do nothing and you may be kicking yourself for a violation you didn't deserve the rest of your career....just to keep him out of trouble.

 

[row9]

33 posts and only cav(post just prior to this one) picked up on the "hinting". You showed him the MAP and he changed. Why not stop hinting and show him the rnav speeds and see what happens? Maybe even add a "if we don't fly the correct speed I will have to file an asap." You must admit deep down part of you wants vengeance for other things that you don't want to mention here.

I know I am playing devil's advocate here, trust me I don't like flying with super captains either. You said you never had a problem with other captains, so I assume this guy is the bad guy, and therefore I really don't blame you for what you are considering doing.

 

[727to7400]

You're in an ugly situation, however you have gotten some excellent advice here. You also need to stand up for yourself as a professional. Make your point to this guy. File the ASAP. File the NASA. And speak to your Pro Stans folks right now.

Document your concerns. If the Fed's do start sniffing around (yes, controllers DO file complaints), your documentation could well be the thing that keeps you from being violated.

Let's get serious...this guy can and if unchecked, will cause an accident someday. You don't want to be on the flight. Same for your family or friends.

And you don't want to spend the rest of your life thinking, "if I'd only done something..."

Like the Nike ad says...just do it.