ASA Program Canned?
- Thread starter kdwilkes
- Start date
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
Doug, It sounds like you do not care much for programs like ASA. You refer to it as a "short cut". Is a short cut in your eyes a good thing or bad thing? You see, I came to FSA a year ago for the "quality" of their training. After completing their CIME program and heading back out West I realized that if I wanted the same quality of training for my remaining CFI ratings I would have to come back to FSA. The ASA program is alot of money however, it does present an opportunity to by-pass 1000 hours of doing turns around a point. Don't get me wrong, you do learn alot as a CFII/MEI but if given the opportunity to fly a CRJ at 500TT I will take it. A good friend of mine is a 747 Captain for UPS. He was a CFI for many years. When I asked him what he thought about ASA he said if I were you I would jump on it in a heart beat. He is the one who recommended Flight Safety over all other schools. Anyway, I guess to me the words short cut sounded like a negative thing. Maybe you can clarify. ILS
First, I like Flight Safety. I used their facilities when I did my Beech 1900 initial. Good programs, no apparent doublespeak and respectable advertising in Flying magazine. Please don't take any apparent criticism as a broadly negative statement about any flight school.
About the short cuts:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
however, it does present an opportunity to by-pass 1000 hours of doing turns around a point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, so if that's not a short cut, I'd like to know what is.
I've got over a thousand hours of dual given and I couldn't disagree more with your description of building experience as a CFI.
A CFI doesn't make water into wine like Jesus or spend 1000's of hours doing turns around a point, but speaking from my personal experience I probably learned more about CRM and working with other people than I learned in a year of flying as a first officer at Skyway Airlines.
When you hop into an aircraft with a new student. You're PIC. You have to make decisions and learn that you just don't grab the controls whenever you think something isn't going right.
You learn to balance dual instruction (non-flying pilot skills), with a little bit of fear (your flying pilot or student isn't performing well), with letting him go up to, but not across the line dividing safe from unsafe operations (captain at approach minimums with no apparent motions towards executing the missed approach).
You also have to learn, on the fly, how to communicate with someone that either doesn't understand what you're talking about, speaks English as a second language, or has some other verbal type of barrier to communication.
If you can take a disguntled and frightened limited-English student single-engine in a Seneca, through Bay Approach, do an ILS below the cloud deck at SJC and then take a SVFR clearance to fly the Reid Hillview and never touch the controls once, handling a bad captain or dangerous situation in the airliner cockpit is going to be a breeze.
If I got visited by the "Ghost of Christmas Past" and was 23 years old again and he said, "Doug, you can go right into the right seat of a regional, or become a CFI", knowing what I know now about the experiences and lessons I learned, I wouldn't change a thing.
And I'm dead serious.
Sure, the ASA program is a good program, but at the risk of never seeing another advertising dollar from a flight school, in the current job market, many direct-track style programs are clever marketing.
About the short cuts:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
however, it does present an opportunity to by-pass 1000 hours of doing turns around a point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, so if that's not a short cut, I'd like to know what is.
I've got over a thousand hours of dual given and I couldn't disagree more with your description of building experience as a CFI.
A CFI doesn't make water into wine like Jesus or spend 1000's of hours doing turns around a point, but speaking from my personal experience I probably learned more about CRM and working with other people than I learned in a year of flying as a first officer at Skyway Airlines.
When you hop into an aircraft with a new student. You're PIC. You have to make decisions and learn that you just don't grab the controls whenever you think something isn't going right.
You learn to balance dual instruction (non-flying pilot skills), with a little bit of fear (your flying pilot or student isn't performing well), with letting him go up to, but not across the line dividing safe from unsafe operations (captain at approach minimums with no apparent motions towards executing the missed approach).
You also have to learn, on the fly, how to communicate with someone that either doesn't understand what you're talking about, speaks English as a second language, or has some other verbal type of barrier to communication.
If you can take a disguntled and frightened limited-English student single-engine in a Seneca, through Bay Approach, do an ILS below the cloud deck at SJC and then take a SVFR clearance to fly the Reid Hillview and never touch the controls once, handling a bad captain or dangerous situation in the airliner cockpit is going to be a breeze.
If I got visited by the "Ghost of Christmas Past" and was 23 years old again and he said, "Doug, you can go right into the right seat of a regional, or become a CFI", knowing what I know now about the experiences and lessons I learned, I wouldn't change a thing.
And I'm dead serious.
Sure, the ASA program is a good program, but at the risk of never seeing another advertising dollar from a flight school, in the current job market, many direct-track style programs are clever marketing.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Doug,
Thank you for writing such a great post about your experiences! You're right on!! 100%... ...I look at the few 135 flights I fly a month and they are a walk in the park (even on a bad day ie northeast weather/grumpy captain) compared to a rough day up with a student....Remember, CFI's are PICs who are constantly in compromising situations. We make tons of decisions regarding flights (Go no/go, sign-offs, student solos, lesson plans etc). Flying in a busy pattern with a student learning to land is much much much harder than an ILS....
Thank you for writing such a great post about your experiences! You're right on!! 100%... ...I look at the few 135 flights I fly a month and they are a walk in the park (even on a bad day ie northeast weather/grumpy captain) compared to a rough day up with a student....Remember, CFI's are PICs who are constantly in compromising situations. We make tons of decisions regarding flights (Go no/go, sign-offs, student solos, lesson plans etc). Flying in a busy pattern with a student learning to land is much much much harder than an ILS....
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
There is no doubt that being a CFI sharpens skills. This is why I am down here at Safety completing my II/MEI. My point is that it sounds like you (like many other high time pilots) frown upon a guy who had the chance to grab the right seat at say 500TT. I mentioned my friend who has been flying 747's with UPS for 15+ years. He said that being a II/MEI was great for sharpening those skills for the first FEW hundred dual given hours but he could have flown the DC8 at UPS just as easily at 700TT as he did at 2000TT when he was hired. I think it depends on the individual. The military puts guy's with basically zero time in a jet and nobody frowns at them. The problem here is that until the past few years you had to be an instructor for 3-6 years before anyone would look at you. So those pilots who had to go that route act like baby's when someone else gets the chance to get that seat with fewer hours. Doug, if you could have grabbed the right seat at 500TT I am sure you would have taken it and jumped for joy. Maybe you did, I don't know your unique situation. To sum it up, I can gaurantee you that a 350-500 hour pilot trained by Flight Safety for ASA will fly circles around a 1500-2000 hour CFI who got hired off the street when they go head to head in the ground school in Atlanta. If you do not believe me then call the guy who runs the ground school up there. So if Flight Safety can help get me that proficient at 500TT then why not get to that right seat, build some seniority, and start gaining the experience we all go through pilot training for. I am not putting down being a CFI. I am one. I am simply saying that I hate it when high time pilots get attitudes when someone else gets a better opportunity. This is why I wanted you (Doug) to clarify how you feel about low time pilots grabbing this opportunity. ILS
CatcherintheSky
New Member
ILS, I think what you are looking for is justification, and I don't think you are not going to get it. The bottom line is that you will be in a position ahead of someone else because you paid for it. I know it is very tempting to take the easy way but I think you have to consider a couple of things:
-Sure you will be better in ground school because you have trained specifically for that airplane and operation. They taught monkeys how to fly into space, but it is the experience and decision making ability that counts when something goes wrong.
-Like it or not, there is a stigma attached to the training. Wrong or right it is there, so you need to make the decision on whether or not you can handle it and the possible effect it will have on your career.
-Being a CFI, and more specifically learning to be PIC or Captain of your little C152 airline while balancing weather, students, teaching, personal life and management builds character, confidence and makes you realize that there is so much more to learn about this career we have chosen than memorizing procedures and checklists.
I am not trying to bag on you or judge your decision, I think you should consder the pros and cons of both. I was in the same position as you when I graduated FSA and the ASA program was one of the reasons I went there, but with the knowledge I have gained in the short time I have been a CFI I know I am making the right choice. You have to make your own.
Good Luck.
-Sure you will be better in ground school because you have trained specifically for that airplane and operation. They taught monkeys how to fly into space, but it is the experience and decision making ability that counts when something goes wrong.
-Like it or not, there is a stigma attached to the training. Wrong or right it is there, so you need to make the decision on whether or not you can handle it and the possible effect it will have on your career.
-Being a CFI, and more specifically learning to be PIC or Captain of your little C152 airline while balancing weather, students, teaching, personal life and management builds character, confidence and makes you realize that there is so much more to learn about this career we have chosen than memorizing procedures and checklists.
I am not trying to bag on you or judge your decision, I think you should consder the pros and cons of both. I was in the same position as you when I graduated FSA and the ASA program was one of the reasons I went there, but with the knowledge I have gained in the short time I have been a CFI I know I am making the right choice. You have to make your own.
Good Luck.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I can gaurantee you that a 350-500 hour pilot trained by Flight Safety for ASA will fly circles around a 1500-2000 hour CFI who got hired off the street when they go head to head in the ground school in Atlanta
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. Whoah. Ok, an opinion is one thing, but I've got to beg to differ with the 'guarantee'. I might accidentally step on a few toes here so I'm going to tread very carefully.
And if this upsets anyone, my apologies, but you know I'm going to speak my mind on jetcareers.com. That's why you guys came, right?
Ok, here goes:
A CFI is a very valuable position. Why? I stated it before a little earlier in the thread so there's no use for me to repeat myself.
Please don't take this as an arrogant statement, but I think I've had a little more time in the industry, between part-141 and part-61 schools, "mom & pops" FBOs, up to ERAU. Po-dunk regional up to top tier major airline. I've been there, done that and even synched generators and "protected essential" as a panel monkey on a 727.
There is no way I could possibly agree with such a broad statement because it patently isn't true and I feel your friend who is a UPS 747 captain is wrong. Feel free to have him contact me directly and I'll discuss it with him if he would like.
Why? Because while I was a Riddle student, I felt the same way you do. In fact, we were helping one of our professors petition the FAA to allow ERAU to issue ATP certificates at only 500 hours because, after all, a 500 hour ERAU graduate is unquestionably more skilled than a 1500 hour pilot.
We were constantly told that we were the best of the best of all pilots, how everyone would see "Embry Riddle" on our resumes and trip over themselves to beg us to join their airline. After all, I've had lunch with John Paul Riddle, could fly a mean "Pattern S" in the Frasca and earlier that year, Newsweek Magazine said that "Embry Riddle is the Harvard of the Skies".
My ground school instructors were airline pilots, my global naviation instructor was a Strategic Air Command B-52 aircraft commander, my aerodynamics teacher was in the running to be an astronaut and was a celebrated Marine Aviation hero.
And when I graduated in 1993, I thought I'd be unstoppable.
I'd be competing with people that had better interviewing skills, more flight time and better connections for the rest of my job search, but Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univeristy on my resume would be my express pass to that 747.
I got a job as a corporate pilot, so when the job disappeared, hey, I'm now a ERAU graduate with TURBINE time, the offers will roll in now, right? Why should I bother getting a CFI when those regionals are going to start banging down my door looking for a 'Riddle grad? No one took the bait... Should I have hyphenated Embry-Riddle? Can't the regionals see that?
I eventually hit the real world and learned the cold reality that all that I was told during my tenure in college about my future ability to "write my own ticket" was laughable.
I've been there. It was a big adjustment.
I'm not going to waste my time calling a ground school instructor at ASA because, quite frankly, I think he's a little low on the aviation food chain to make such a broad statement about 500 hour pilots compared to 1500 hour pilots.
I've flown with captains that formerly flew civilian DC-3's that can easily fly circles around some of our former Air Force F--16 Thunderbird pilots that flew "lead". But no one in their right mind would argue against the statement that the US military has the absolute best training on Earth.
Best training? Undergraduate Pilot Training.
Best pilots? Well, it depends on how you quantify "best". Best pilots doing what? Flying approaches? best CRM? Best ability to complete a syllabus on time? Best ability to get the highest correct percentage taking a test on a scantron sheet?
Personally, if I had a son that was undergoing flight training, he'd get his CFI regardless of any type of "direct track" program. Because those programs come and go, all airlines have the potential to furlough at any moment (just ask the 16 year USAir pilot working at Wal Mart) and he needs a "Plan B", especially now.
Because my son will be on the bottom of a seniority list that's not going to progress for a very very long time.
Trust me, get your CFI. Don't believe the hype.
I can gaurantee you that a 350-500 hour pilot trained by Flight Safety for ASA will fly circles around a 1500-2000 hour CFI who got hired off the street when they go head to head in the ground school in Atlanta
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. Whoah. Ok, an opinion is one thing, but I've got to beg to differ with the 'guarantee'. I might accidentally step on a few toes here so I'm going to tread very carefully.
And if this upsets anyone, my apologies, but you know I'm going to speak my mind on jetcareers.com. That's why you guys came, right?
A CFI is a very valuable position. Why? I stated it before a little earlier in the thread so there's no use for me to repeat myself.
Please don't take this as an arrogant statement, but I think I've had a little more time in the industry, between part-141 and part-61 schools, "mom & pops" FBOs, up to ERAU. Po-dunk regional up to top tier major airline. I've been there, done that and even synched generators and "protected essential" as a panel monkey on a 727.
There is no way I could possibly agree with such a broad statement because it patently isn't true and I feel your friend who is a UPS 747 captain is wrong. Feel free to have him contact me directly and I'll discuss it with him if he would like.
Why? Because while I was a Riddle student, I felt the same way you do. In fact, we were helping one of our professors petition the FAA to allow ERAU to issue ATP certificates at only 500 hours because, after all, a 500 hour ERAU graduate is unquestionably more skilled than a 1500 hour pilot.
We were constantly told that we were the best of the best of all pilots, how everyone would see "Embry Riddle" on our resumes and trip over themselves to beg us to join their airline. After all, I've had lunch with John Paul Riddle, could fly a mean "Pattern S" in the Frasca and earlier that year, Newsweek Magazine said that "Embry Riddle is the Harvard of the Skies".
My ground school instructors were airline pilots, my global naviation instructor was a Strategic Air Command B-52 aircraft commander, my aerodynamics teacher was in the running to be an astronaut and was a celebrated Marine Aviation hero.
And when I graduated in 1993, I thought I'd be unstoppable.
I'd be competing with people that had better interviewing skills, more flight time and better connections for the rest of my job search, but Embry Riddle Aeronautical Univeristy on my resume would be my express pass to that 747.
I got a job as a corporate pilot, so when the job disappeared, hey, I'm now a ERAU graduate with TURBINE time, the offers will roll in now, right? Why should I bother getting a CFI when those regionals are going to start banging down my door looking for a 'Riddle grad? No one took the bait... Should I have hyphenated Embry-Riddle? Can't the regionals see that?
I eventually hit the real world and learned the cold reality that all that I was told during my tenure in college about my future ability to "write my own ticket" was laughable.
I've been there. It was a big adjustment.
I'm not going to waste my time calling a ground school instructor at ASA because, quite frankly, I think he's a little low on the aviation food chain to make such a broad statement about 500 hour pilots compared to 1500 hour pilots.
I've flown with captains that formerly flew civilian DC-3's that can easily fly circles around some of our former Air Force F--16 Thunderbird pilots that flew "lead". But no one in their right mind would argue against the statement that the US military has the absolute best training on Earth.
Best training? Undergraduate Pilot Training.
Best pilots? Well, it depends on how you quantify "best". Best pilots doing what? Flying approaches? best CRM? Best ability to complete a syllabus on time? Best ability to get the highest correct percentage taking a test on a scantron sheet?
Personally, if I had a son that was undergoing flight training, he'd get his CFI regardless of any type of "direct track" program. Because those programs come and go, all airlines have the potential to furlough at any moment (just ask the 16 year USAir pilot working at Wal Mart) and he needs a "Plan B", especially now.
Because my son will be on the bottom of a seniority list that's not going to progress for a very very long time.
Trust me, get your CFI. Don't believe the hype.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Yeah, CLR4ILS.....I found that statement about about the 350-500hr guy flying circles around the other to be a little off base. (And I fall into that 300-500hr category, granted I'm a poor shlub who hasn't done the ASA program).
I think FSI is a great school, I think the ASA program sounds good too. But sorry, you're not gonna convince me that a 400 hr guy who's flown around Vero for the last year and then did the ASA thing is god's gift to aviation. (Neither is the 2000hr CFI). I think you're missing the bigger picture.
And...I know you're doing your CFII-MEI, have you worked previoulsy as a CFI? Just wondering...Not trying to bust balls.
I think FSI is a great school, I think the ASA program sounds good too. But sorry, you're not gonna convince me that a 400 hr guy who's flown around Vero for the last year and then did the ASA thing is god's gift to aviation. (Neither is the 2000hr CFI). I think you're missing the bigger picture.
And...I know you're doing your CFII-MEI, have you worked previoulsy as a CFI? Just wondering...Not trying to bust balls.
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
O.K. first of all My friend Marc who flies for UPS is a hell of a pilot. He not only went the CFI route but flew corporate for about 1 YR. before being the youngest pilot ever hired at UPS (22YOA). He then went on to be the youngest Captain of a Stretch DC8 at the age of 24. So I think that he knows just a little about what he is talking about. Marc is the one who told me to have a plan B and maybe C. This is why I am completing the CFI/II/MEI. Will I continue to give instruction if I elect to do the ASA program? You bet. Marc himself still takes on an instrument student now and then. The funny thing is that I have seen and heard so many different things from high time pilots about direct track programs. My friend Llans who is a captain for Southwest also told me to do the ASA program and complete the CFI ratings for a backup. He was an instructor at Riddle in Daytona. I recieved the same advice from a friend of the family who is a 727 check pilot with FED EX. ALL three of these guys when I asked them warned me that SOME high time pilots would look down on someone who got in at lower time than they did. They all said don't sweat it. If they could have done the same they would have. I believe it. As for my CFI ratings. I think it was a good choice. Just working on the ratings has reinforced a lot of the initial training. Is the ASA program for me set in stone? No, but I still think it is a hell of a program. There isn't a school out there that has a program this well put together. As for the flying circles around other 1500 hour pilots from the outside, I cannot reveal my source but it came from high up. Think about it. ILS
I think you're completely missing the point. I didn't say your pal wasn't a "hell of a pilot". I am also not making any value judgement on the people that gave you advice.
Let's grab the wheel and steer back towards the issue at hand.
This is a website for career advice. Pure and simple. This isn't a bully pulpit, or a profit center and eats up a lot of my free time so I'm not going to beat around the bush when it comes to professional opinions.
If you ask a question on my website, you're going to get an answer. You may not always like the answer, however in the long run, you may gain a little perspective on why I say certain things.
You compared being a CFI to droning around in circles, wasting time. I disagreed wholeheartedly and I still do.
A direct track program is great if you just want to be an FO in a regional jet. Don't, by any means, walk into a ground school thinking that you're "the man" because you're in the classroom with pilots with a lot more flight time. Because captains can sense an attitude like that before you even step in the cockpit and it will pose a problem.
Yes, some pilots look down on "direct track"-style programs. But let me qualify that statement from experience.
At Skyway Airlines, we had a few UND grads that got jobs with less than 300 hours. Those pilots were watched like hawks and some pilots (not including myself) took great delight in when the "wonder boys" (as some called them) failed checkrides or were released from employment for one reason or another because the impression (not shared by me) was that these UND grads walked into Skyway like perfumed princes as they could do no wrong because they were 4.0 GPA UND students and how they were going to show the rest of us how skillful they were.
That's an example of "high time pilots disdain".
I don't possess that same sentiment. My problem was with your statement about CFI's NOT some direct-track program.
If your friends would like to participate in the forums and/or write a perspective piece, by all means, they're more than welcome to join the discussion.
As for "revealing sources", feel free. He or she can't look up "CLR4ILS" in the telephone directory and harm you. Heck, I don't even know your name myself and I own this website.
I can guarantee you that if I were captain circumnavigating thunderstorms with a logbook full of MEL's, I'd rather have a 1500 hour pilot in the FO seat than a 300 hour pilot full of book knowledge any day
Let me give you some advice, in fact, let me give everyone reading this thread some advice. In order to thrive in aviation, keep your nose clean and survive long enough to get that water cannon salute when you turn 60, you're going to have to develop a better sense of humility.
There is always going to be a better pilot, smoother lander, more dapper with the flight attendants and sharper uniformed pilot. Learn your craft, learn the social environment and go to work to perform.
Flying an aircraft is easy. Holy crap, after a few thousand hours of experience, it gets pretty comfortable. But there are things that many new pilots can't appreciate at first that you experience on the route to the cockpit that will completely enhance your flying.
Let's grab the wheel and steer back towards the issue at hand.
This is a website for career advice. Pure and simple. This isn't a bully pulpit, or a profit center and eats up a lot of my free time so I'm not going to beat around the bush when it comes to professional opinions.
If you ask a question on my website, you're going to get an answer. You may not always like the answer, however in the long run, you may gain a little perspective on why I say certain things.
You compared being a CFI to droning around in circles, wasting time. I disagreed wholeheartedly and I still do.
A direct track program is great if you just want to be an FO in a regional jet. Don't, by any means, walk into a ground school thinking that you're "the man" because you're in the classroom with pilots with a lot more flight time. Because captains can sense an attitude like that before you even step in the cockpit and it will pose a problem.
Yes, some pilots look down on "direct track"-style programs. But let me qualify that statement from experience.
At Skyway Airlines, we had a few UND grads that got jobs with less than 300 hours. Those pilots were watched like hawks and some pilots (not including myself) took great delight in when the "wonder boys" (as some called them) failed checkrides or were released from employment for one reason or another because the impression (not shared by me) was that these UND grads walked into Skyway like perfumed princes as they could do no wrong because they were 4.0 GPA UND students and how they were going to show the rest of us how skillful they were.
That's an example of "high time pilots disdain".
I don't possess that same sentiment. My problem was with your statement about CFI's NOT some direct-track program.
If your friends would like to participate in the forums and/or write a perspective piece, by all means, they're more than welcome to join the discussion.
As for "revealing sources", feel free. He or she can't look up "CLR4ILS" in the telephone directory and harm you. Heck, I don't even know your name myself and I own this website.
I can guarantee you that if I were captain circumnavigating thunderstorms with a logbook full of MEL's, I'd rather have a 1500 hour pilot in the FO seat than a 300 hour pilot full of book knowledge any day
Let me give you some advice, in fact, let me give everyone reading this thread some advice. In order to thrive in aviation, keep your nose clean and survive long enough to get that water cannon salute when you turn 60, you're going to have to develop a better sense of humility.
There is always going to be a better pilot, smoother lander, more dapper with the flight attendants and sharper uniformed pilot. Learn your craft, learn the social environment and go to work to perform.
Flying an aircraft is easy. Holy crap, after a few thousand hours of experience, it gets pretty comfortable. But there are things that many new pilots can't appreciate at first that you experience on the route to the cockpit that will completely enhance your flying.
AirportRat
New Member
Bravo! Well said Doug! I'm working on my CFI at an FBO (God forbid). Every training flight and every ground session is a learning evperience. Standing in front of a dry erase board trying to explain the simplest manuevers is a learning experience in itself. I was caught up in the search for a fast route to the airlines only to realize that it's not a profession which can be mastered in 6 months. Now, instead of worrying about the hiring pool at xyz airline, I worry about being able to teach a soft field landing. I kept my "day job" which is actually a night job (Police officer), train in the afternoon and on my days off, and am finishing the degree (30 credits to go) in the evening. So I'm not in the right seat of a CRJ, but I'll have a CFI job at the FBO I'm training at and I'll go from there.(Plus the bills are being paid). Thanks Doug for a great site. I have followed your advice and appreciate every bit of it.
P.S. Just finished "Captain" and really enjoyed it. You just never know how your career will take different paths and fork off in different directions.
P.S. Just finished "Captain" and really enjoyed it. You just never know how your career will take different paths and fork off in different directions.
Well said Doug! Best advice I have seen or heard in a while. It reconfirms my desire and the necessity to become a CFI and pay those dues. Someone once told me that you never really learn anything about aerodynamics and flying until you have to teach it to someone else. Thanks to all the hard working CFIs who teach us younger guys how to fly safely and wisely.
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
Well you do give some good advice. I think it depends on the individual though. Some people may need 1200-2000 hours of dual given to be ready for that first line position. Others may only need 500 hours. If you think about it, simply working on your CFI ratings is just a review of what you should already know. I will agree that it is beneficial to give a couple of hundred hours of dual for each CFI rating held. It shouldn't take any more than that to drill that stuff into your head and learn to make good decisions. That is what I was referring too about doing 1000 hours of turns around a point. If any of you disagree with that then maybe you do need 2000 hours of dual given to feel comfortable with your flying abilities. I am alway's looking to see what kind of response I will get from a current airline pilot about direct track programs. I didn't think it would stir up this much fun. I guess that is why we chat here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As for the high time pilots I know who have said "based on the current job market" get to that first job as fast as you can and get some seniority and experience behind you. I agree with them. By the way, the guy sitting next to you as you circumnavigate around those thunderstorms could be the CFI with 1500 hours who had 95% pre-private students and never went any further than the practice area in Phoenix Arizona. Food for thought. It has been fun. ILS
CLR4ILS
Well-Known Member
I would agree with the experience comment. It is the type of experience in question. For instance, I myself at a little over 400/100 have flown all over the Northwest from Seattle to Portland to Boise to California and have flown several approaches up there down to mins in a Twin (Seminole). I'll take that over instruction experience. Like I said it depends on the individual. This is like the Howard Stern Show. People are logging on just to see what we will say next. Anyway, no disrespect Doug, I know you have been around (in aviation
) and have seen quite a bit but my views on the amount of dual given necessary to get proficient for that first line position won't change over 10 years. ILS
Doug, when I get back to Scottsdale we have got to do lunch or play a round at troon.
Doug, when I get back to Scottsdale we have got to do lunch or play a round at troon.
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