ASA PBS vote food for thought

[ClearedToThe]

What do you mean by this?

It is not the company who is against recallng the furloughees - it is our union who doesn't want it. Truth of the matter is that it is costing to company more money to have the line values where they are than to lower the line values and recall. A very reputable source from the company has not denied this fact. I'm also convinced that the same people in the union against lowering the lines and recalling are the same ones who are pushing so hard for PBS.

 

[Trip7]

It is not the company who is against recallng the furloughees - it is our union who doesn't want it. Truth of the matter is that it is costing to company more money to have the line values where they are than to lower the line values and recall. A very reputable source from the company has not denied this fact. I'm also convinced that the same people in the union against lowering the lines and recalling are the same ones who are pushing so hard for PBS.

I HIGHLY doubt that.

 

[aevfo]

It is not the company who is against recallng the furloughees - it is our union who doesn't want it. Truth of the matter is that it is costing to company more money to have the line values where they are than to lower the line values and recall. A very reputable source from the company has not denied this fact. I'm also convinced that the same people in the union against lowering the lines and recalling are the same ones who are pushing so hard for PBS.

Really??? I'd be very interested to hear who in management said that. In this time of cost cutting EVERYTHING, I find it very hard to believe they are putting off recalling to appease the union. I know there were the few captains bitching about low credit, but for every one of them, I can show you 10 people bitching about red arrow days and the lack of variety of trips caused by understaffing. If in fact this is true, this is beyond reprehensible and we need to remove those s as soon as possible.

 

[ClearedToThe]

I HIGHLY doubt that.

I HIGHLY suggest you run the numbers yourself then. I have brought numerical evidence to the company's attention about this fact - and they did not deny it.

I have run the numbers. It is simple math. Recalling the furloughs lowers the company's average labor cost per hour. Spreading the block hours across a lower average hourly pay brings the total labor cost down.

Also, I know your position on PBS. Can you please clarify how PBS will allow ASA to be more competitve against Skywest Airlines in obtaining growth? The first step to ASA gaining additional flying is being cheaper then Skywest Airlines. Until this happens, the majority of any growth will ALWAYS go to the OO certificate.

Again, it seems that it is THE UNION that is pressuring the company to not recall. The senior pilot group does not want their line values to go down.

 

[ClearedToThe]

Really??? I'd be very interested to hear who in management said that. In this time of cost cutting EVERYTHING, I find it very hard to believe they are putting off recalling to appease the union. I know there were the few captains bitching about low credit, but for every one of them, I can show you 10 people bitching about red arrow days and the lack of variety of trips caused by understaffing. If in fact this is true, this is beyond reprehensible and we need to remove those s as soon as possible.

PM me or Josh for more info.

 

[meritflyer]

I find it very hard to believe that 9E's labor accounts for that much of their operating expense. Where did you get the data? Not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to double check it from our end.

Those figures look completely normal for any company that utilizes a labor force (i.e. pilots, sales representatives, etc.).

 

[kellwolf]

Become expensive and you lose your job. Or in TSA's case even if you're cheap you're still not cheap enough.

That's not always true. Mesa is furloughing their way into non-existence, yet XJT is recalling guys because they just won flying with United.

The reason I got from 9E management on why we didn't get the XJT flying was because we didn't have spare airframes sitting around. United wanted someone else to foot the bill on leases, and they determined that we wouldn't have a decent enough profit margin if we had to acquire the airframes ourselves. In the case of XJT, they may be more expensive, but they had the planes sitting around.

 

[aevfo]

In the case of XJT, they may be more expensive, but they had the planes sitting around.

It also matters what XJT bid for the flying. XJT already had the planes sitting around paying leases on them, so they were able to bid the flying for very little profit, or no profit and still come out ahead.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Crazy conspiracy theories. I can pretty much guarantee that your reps aren't intentionally trying to delay recalls. Where do guys come up with this stuff?

The PBS LOA that was negotiated is a great deal. Take it now or watch the great deal disappear when you have less leverage in Section 6. You'll still end up with PBS, but it will be a far more onerous system.

 

[surreal1221]

Crazy conspiracy theories. I can pretty much guarantee that your reps aren't intentionally trying to delay recalls. Where do guys come up with this stuff?

The PBS LOA that was negotiated is a great deal. Take it now or watch the great deal disappear when you have less leverage in Section 6. You'll still end up with PBS, but it will be a far more onerous system.

Oh, I have no doubt our reps are not intentionally trying to delay recalls. It's not the reps I'm concerned about.

It is, after all, politics. They're going to keep the ones most apt to cause hell if line values drop below an average of 83 hours happy, otherwise PBS blows up like a Me-109 during Dubya Dubya Two.

As far as theories, no comment.

 

[ClearedToThe]

Crazy conspiracy theories. I can pretty much guarantee that your reps aren't intentionally trying to delay recalls. Where do guys come up with this stuff?

The PBS LOA that was negotiated is a great deal. Take it now or watch the great deal disappear when you have less leverage in Section 6. You'll still end up with PBS, but it will be a far more onerous system.

Then please do tell why the union is rolling over while the company continues to increase the monthly line values? If they really wanted us back, I would imagine they would try to get the company to spread out some more of the flying, no? What about the red arrow days? More pilots would solve that too. Our pilot group is divided between those who want recalls to increase trip variety and reduce red arrow days and those who want more furloughs so their line values will keep going up.

And while we are at it, why don't we bargain with the company to include everyone on the current seniority list to be protected by the "no furlough" clause in exchange for PBS? This way the company will actually have more motivation to obtain flying on the ASA certificate. (You know that whole growth promise that PBS holds). At least this way the pilot group will get something in exchange for PBS.

 

[wheelsup]

If the company would save money by holding classes for furloughs they will do it. No amount of union pressure will stop them.

 

[ClearedToThe]

If the company would save money by holding classes for furloughs they will do it. No amount of union pressure will stop them.

One would certainly hope so. However, keep in mind that ASA is pushing for PBS. If management upset the senior pilot group by recalling and lowering the line values, do you really think the PBS vote would have a chance of passing?

 

[aviategw]

One would certainly hope so. However, keep in mind that ASA is pushing for PBS. If management upset the senior pilot group by recalling and lowering the line values, do you really think the PBS vote would have a chance of passing?

Your argument really isn't working for me.

First of all, there's no way that the union guys are intentionally doing anything to prevent the furloughs from getting back on property. Stated differently, your theory is that the union is attempting to decrease the pool of dues paying members. Realllly? There is no conspiracy here.

PBS means that the senior guys get more of what they want, not less. The arrival of PBS will not upset the senior pilot group.

Clearly, ASA wants PBS. Just as clearly, PBS will be at ASA at some point in the near future. Doooya really think it'll get better during a section 6 negotiation?

There are parts of PBS that no one likes. However, I just don't see how sticking our head in the sand and wasting negotiating capital on a hopeless delaying tactic is in ASA's and our best interests.

 

[kellwolf]

PBS means that the senior guys get more of what they want, not less. The arrival of PBS will not upset the senior pilot group.

Depends on how it works, rules attached, training on how to bid, etc. We have senior guys ROUTINELY miss out on stuff to guys up to 50 slots junior to them because you need to be a math major to get what you want a lot of times with our PBS system.

 

[Trip7]

I HIGHLY suggest you run the numbers yourself then. I have brought numerical evidence to the company's attention about this fact - and they did not deny it.

I have run the numbers. It is simple math. Recalling the furloughs lowers the company's average labor cost per hour. Spreading the block hours across a lower average hourly pay brings the total labor cost down.

Also, I know your position on PBS. Can you please clarify how PBS will allow ASA to be more competitve against Skywest Airlines in obtaining growth? The first step to ASA gaining additional flying is being cheaper then Skywest Airlines. Until this happens, the majority of any growth will ALWAYS go to the OO certificate.

Again, it seems that it is THE UNION that is pressuring the company to not recall. The senior pilot group does not want their line values to go down.

Simple math eh? Im sure you included the cost of retraining, as well as the company's share of paying health insurance premium's for each of one of furloughees. If you could show this 'simple math' as well as who in upper management you provided this to who said it was true that would be great.

 

[ClearedToThe]

Simple math eh? Im sure you included the cost of retraining, as well as the company's share of paying health insurance premium's for each of one of furloughees. If you could show this 'simple math' as well as who in upper management you provided this to who said it was true that would be great.

I did take that into account. Per the company, it is around 30% of a pilot's annual base pay.

Trip, please feel free to PM me if you would like more info.

I am not here to name drop. I just want to present my INDEPENDENT research on our current staffing situation and introduce a new line of thinking versus just taking the company or the union's word as gospel. My numbers are probably not 100% accurate as there are some underlying assumptions I have made, but I feel they are representative of the current situation.

Again, I am not trying to start a war - far from it. The sooner we can all get on the same page and act collectively, the better off we will be.

 

[surreal1221]

Trip,

He did account for the health and retraining costs, which were verified by the management source. Just send him a PM and he'll show you the figures as well.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Then please do tell why the union is rolling over while the company continues to increase the monthly line values?

The union is not "rolling over." Quite the contrary, they have gotten you the best PBS language in the industry, by far. You'll never see PBS language this good again if you pass it up now. You'll be very sorry if you have to negotiate this in Section 6.

And while we are at it, why don't we bargain with the company to include everyone on the current seniority list to be protected by the "no furlough" clause in exchange for PBS?

Because there isn't enough bargaining leverage in the world to get a company to recall pilots that they know they don't need.

We have senior guys ROUTINELY miss out on stuff to guys up to 50 slots junior to them because you need to be a math major to get what you want a lot of times with our PBS system.

The FLiCA PBS that ASA is getting is not anything close to the system that Pinnacle is using. I agree with you, though, that the complicated mathematical system that the Pinnacle PBS uses is not conducive to honoring seniority in practice.

 

[ClearedToThe]

Crazy conspiracy theories. I can pretty much guarantee that your reps aren't intentionally trying to delay recalls. Where do guys come up with this stuff? QUOTE]

If they were calling for furloughs before the company was, why should one believe they would want the furloughees back at the cost of reduced line values?

Below is an excerpt from an MEC communication dated November 2008. Yes, this is 3 months before ASA furloughed.

Given the state of our country’s economy, the trends in the airline industry and the unknown fallout from the recent DAL/NWA merger, we would be well-served to examine our situation and determine, what is our exposure to furloughs at ASA? Let’s consider a few facts as we assess our situation:

For starters, let’s take a look at the economy. It is obvious that we are in the midst of an economic recession in the United States. How deep that rabbit hole goes and for how long the trend will continue is undetermined. What is known is that consumers are spending less and will continue to spend less for the near future. For us, that means fewer people traveling and (probably) fewer block-hours of flying for our only code share partner, Delta. How much less flying and for how long is also unknown at this time.

Delta has made it clear, and the company has gone public with the notion, that it intends to cut 50-seat jet capacity. Whose flying will get cut, how much and when is still unknown.

Also, the Delta contract permits only a finite number of 700/900 aircraft that can be flown by its DCI carriers. To date, the number of aircraft in service and on order either meets or exceeds that allowance. Any further expansion of 700/900 flying will have to be agreed to by the Delta pilots and/or additional mainline orders have to be announced. As of now, the MEC hasn’t heard from ASA, SkyWest or Delta whether we will be obtaining any additional jet aircraft.

And keep in mind, ASA management has communicated numerous times that they do not intend to furlough any pilots. That does not mean it is out of the question. The fact that ASA management is holding on to hundreds of extra pilots while our total block hours flown for Delta is low, begs the question, why?

You're asking yourself the wrong questions. Who cares whether PBS makes the company cheaper to operate? That's not your concern. That's management's concern.

Your question should be "is PBS good for the pilots?" Normally, I would say "no." However, your MEC did an incredible job in negotiating your PBS LOA, and I think the answer is "yes" in this case. That's all that matters. Who cares about the company's costs?

Your own words.