Article on CJC3407 NTSB hearing

Sig you lost me. These are your opinions and nothing more. Your FO is entitled to his as well are the CFIs out there. And if you were my high and mighty 4 striper and you "bitchslapped" me due to having a differing viewpoint or opinion on something you could expect the same in return. The Captain has the decision making authority on a flight and I respect that. Anything that has to do with opinions or viewpoints and we are on an equal field. Don't use your PIC status to feed FOs your rhetoric.
 
Thanks Sig for the apology. I now know more of where your opinions have come from and I respect your ideas and beliefs.
 
The bitch-slapping description is a perfect example of something I was discussing with a friend of mine a few weeks ago.

The conclusion was, too many captains at the vendor level exert their PIC authority on the second in command instead of the other things: gate agent, dispatch, passengers, and so on. The very person who is there to back up the PIC with information to make a decision and weigh in on it is the most popular victim of PIC authority.

This is never how it should be but for whatever reason there are captains out there that take PIC authority to mean authority over their co-pilot and when it comes time to really use their authority at the gate or on the phone with dispatch or maintenance, they fold faster than superman doing laundry. But they won't hesitate to micro-manage the cockpit when it's not their leg or not bother to ask the first officer their opinion of the situation before they make the PIC decision.

Fortunately they are the minority. I just never remember any captain at the mainline airline I jumpseated one hundred times with and worked with captains in the safety department with ever come close to showing any kind of the same behavior.
 
kellwolf said:
One of the things I don't like about our manuals is the fact they are very vague in some areas. Is this an oversight? Hell, no. If they leave it intentionally vague and the fecal matter hits the rotating blades, well, they can say "pilot error" since the procedure was vague to begin with. Company, at worst, get a slap on the rest and told to clarify the procedure. There's WAY too many "captain's discretion" stuff floating around for legal reasons that will get the company out of hot water just in case. I think they learned this when the TVC accident bit them in the ass with the whole "don't apply max braking even if the runway's contaminated" BS. Went off the end b/c the company wanted to save some $$$ on brakes, so they tossed that in there. It got changed REAL fast after that accident since the FAA caught wind of it. Wanna know how much the airline cares about you? The FAA and NTSB can absolve a captain of all wrong doing and say he followed company procedures to the letter. If you go off the end of the runway, they'll still fire you as a scape goat for the media.

As for "bitch slapping" FOs, well, if someone's got an opinon that's formed on incorrect facts or reflects a lack of respect for people that haven't even had their "trial" yet, they need to be told. Dancing on egg shells isn't gonna solve any problems, and they need to be corrected whether they be CAs, FOs, DOs, CEOs or whatever.
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And why couldn't the union get his job back????
 
Nick said:
The bitch-slapping description is a perfect example of something I was discussing with a friend of mine a few weeks ago.

The conclusion was, too many captains at the vendor level exert their PIC authority on the second in command instead of the other things: gate agent, dispatch, passengers, and so on. The very person who is there to back up the PIC with information to make a decision and weigh in on it is the most popular victim of PIC authority.

This is never how it should be but for whatever reason there are captains out there that take PIC authority to mean authority over their co-pilot and when it comes time to really use their authority at the gate or on the phone with dispatch or maintenance, they fold faster than superman doing laundry. But they won't hesitate to micro-manage the cockpit when it's not their leg or not bother to ask the first officer their opinion of the situation before they make the PIC decision.

Fortunately they are the minority. I just never remember any captain at the mainline airline I jumpseated one hundred times with and worked with captains in the safety department with ever come close to showing any kind of the same behavior.
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That pretty much sums up every "bad" Captain I have flown with. Thankfully they are the minority but we have a few of them here and they tend to be the ones that happened to be in the right place at the right time and upgraded when they may not have been ready for it. Just because your seniority number is called doesn't mean that you are ready. The senior guys and the guys who put in some real time in the right seat tend not to run that kind of cockpit.

Anyways end of rant and back to the 3407 stuff.
 
SoCalAprch said:
That pretty much sums up every "bad" Captain I have flown with. Thankfully they are the minority but we have a few of them here and they tend to be the ones that happened to be in the right place at the right time and upgraded when they may not have been ready for it. Just because your seniority number is called doesn't mean that you are ready. The senior guys and the guys who put in some real time in the right seat tend not to run that kind of cockpit.

Anyways end of rant and back to the 3407 stuff.
Click to expand...



It happened at a cookout, kids. Away from work, but shop was being talked, and loudly.

Scooter ran his mouth about how another captain made a stupid mistake, and how in his 250 hours of flying he never did the same... then KABOOM... "those idiots on Colgan 3407 are just a preview of what this guy is going to do someday."

I. Went. Unhinged.

Why?

Because I had a trip with him in three days, and we had something very stinky to air out immediately. The 'idiots' comment, being above the whole statistic curve, having jack squat experience in the plane, and the priceless fact that the captain who made a silly mistake didn't make the mistake- The FO did- had me furious.

We came to terms, but man- he had fang marks in his backside. To this day, we're very close friends outside of work and get along famously on the road.

If there is a clue about what I'm like on the flight deck, calling the left seat the high chair should be a huge clue.

I get laughs aplenty (a MUST on my trips, if we aren't having a blast then something's wrong) when I explain it.

I'll let you figure it out.

And nobody's money is any good on an overnight but mine!
 
Nick said:
The bitch-slapping description is a perfect example of something I was discussing with a friend of mine a few weeks ago.

The conclusion was, too many captains at the vendor level exert their PIC authority on the second in command instead of the other things: gate agent, dispatch, passengers, and so on. The very person who is there to back up the PIC with information to make a decision and weigh in on it is the most popular victim of PIC authority.
Click to expand...

Examples? I'm a regional captain (is that what you mean by vendor level?) but I don't really see what you mean. Inherently the captain will be the ultimate decision maker. How is the FO a victim?

I do exert my "PIC authority" in certain aspects of the flight, but usually it's something like, "hey why don't we do XYZ.." be it cruise at the planned speed or not descend 20 miles before necessary for a crossing. In most cases that I've seen much like the Captain/Dispatcher relationship works with planning etc, I usually see similarly in the CA/FO relationship that the most conservative course of action prevails.
 
Baronman said:
Examples? I'm a regional captain (is that what you mean by vendor level?) but I don't really see what you mean. Inherently the captain will be the ultimate decision maker. How is the FO a victim?

I do exert my "PIC authority" in certain aspects of the flight, but usually it's something like, "hey why don't we do XYZ.." be it cruise at the planned speed or not descend 20 miles before necessary for a crossing. In most cases that I've seen much like the Captain/Dispatcher relationship works with planning etc, I usually see similarly in the CA/FO relationship that the most conservative course of action prevails.
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I've got a few stories for you of folks at Express. PM me if you want to hear em.
 
kellwolf said:
Pretty sure he didn't want it. The gig in India pays better. The union saw it coming and handed the company the grievance paper work as they were being handed the termination paperwork.
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Well that's a bit more comforting than what I'd been hearing about it.... pretty much heard that "even though he did nothing "wrong" the company hung him" (which isn't surprising).... never a hint that they could have gotten the job back.
 
Baronman said:
Examples? I'm a regional captain (is that what you mean by vendor level?) but I don't really see what you mean. Inherently the captain will be the ultimate decision maker. How is the FO a victim?

I do exert my "PIC authority" in certain aspects of the flight, but usually it's something like, "hey why don't we do XYZ.." be it cruise at the planned speed or not descend 20 miles before necessary for a crossing. In most cases that I've seen much like the Captain/Dispatcher relationship works with planning etc, I usually see similarly in the CA/FO relationship that the most conservative course of action prevails.
Click to expand...

When you find yourself doing your FOs job or telling your FO how to do his because its the way you "run your ship" then you may be like the example above (granted if something is a blatant disregard to SOPs then obviously you got to do what you got to do...). In your crossing restriction scenario I agree and the FO should have learned by now when to and when not to descend. Its not like any of these airlines are still hiring so most of the FOs gotta have more than a year of experience. This guy/gal that doesn't know how to desend or fly the profile needs a label of his own.

If you act like you haven't ever been an FO and somehow were birthed into the left seat you probably are one of "these" Captains. And especially if you think that just because you are the PIC that the FO isn't entitled to his/her opinon or viewpoint on everything from the flight to how hot the chick sitting in 1A is you may be a bad Captain.

Also blabbing about your new Lexus while flying a trip that you picked up from open time while we have pilots on the street is an automatic d bag Captain award!

But remember these guys are the absoulte minority and am lucky to say in my time here I have only flown with one or two of em.
 
Sig said:
It happened at a cookout, kids. Away from work, but shop was being talked, and loudly.

Scooter ran his mouth about how another captain made a stupid mistake, and how in his 250 hours of flying he never did the same... then KABOOM... "those idiots on Colgan 3407 are just a preview of what this guy is going to do someday."

I. Went. Unhinged.

Why?

Because I had a trip with him in three days, and we had something very stinky to air out immediately. The 'idiots' comment, being above the whole statistic curve, having jack squat experience in the plane, and the priceless fact that the captain who made a silly mistake didn't make the mistake- The FO did- had me furious.

We came to terms, but man- he had fang marks in his backside. To this day, we're very close friends outside of work and get along famously on the road.

If there is a clue about what I'm like on the flight deck, calling the left seat the high chair should be a huge clue.

I get laughs aplenty (a MUST on my trips, if we aren't having a blast then something's wrong) when I explain it.

I'll let you figure it out.

And nobody's money is any good on an overnight but mine!
Click to expand...

I gotcha! :) No need to explain as I wasn't there and every situation warrants its own approach. When you said bitchslapped you FO I took it to mean that you were flying and you chewed him/her out about some type of opinion they had relating to the CJC3407 stuff. Cookouts are the time to air that stuff out but not in the cockpit.
 
OldTownPilot said:
There isn't much that can't be learned from the transcripts over the tapes. Transcripts are more than sufficient for almost any educational purpose.
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Yeah exactly. If you really do want to learn something the transcripts are enough. I would never be able to listen to a CVR knowing there was a bad outcome.
 
Nick said:
The bitch-slapping description is a perfect example of something I was discussing with a friend of mine a few weeks ago.

The conclusion was, too many captains at the vendor level exert their PIC authority on the second in command instead of the other things: gate agent, dispatch, passengers, and so on. The very person who is there to back up the PIC with information to make a decision and weigh in on it is the most popular victim of PIC authority.

This is never how it should be but for whatever reason there are captains out there that take PIC authority to mean authority over their co-pilot and when it comes time to really use their authority at the gate or on the phone with dispatch or maintenance, they fold faster than superman doing laundry. But they won't hesitate to micro-manage the cockpit when it's not their leg or not bother to ask the first officer their opinion of the situation before they make the PIC decision.

Fortunately they are the minority. I just never remember any captain at the mainline airline I jumpseated one hundred times with and worked with captains in the safety department with ever come close to showing any kind of the same behavior.
Click to expand...

I'm a little late on the thread but I agree with the above highlighted.

/start regional turboprop captain rant
With that said, wait until your FO (that has your back?) who can't land centerline and doesn't know anything in the book besides the visual profiles sells ur 4$$ out for absolutely nothing except a slightly faster upgrade they don't have the hours for (nor competency).

/regional turboprop captain rant over.
 
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