Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Transcripts/Tapes same difference. I was not specifically saying we need the tapes, it was just written poorly by me.
Article on CJC3407 NTSB hearing
- Thread starter sherpa
- Start date
Transcripts/Tapes same difference. I was not specifically saying we need the tapes, it was just written poorly by me.
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Transcript will become public information at 0730 on the 12th....the first day of the hearing. I'm certain the media will be salivating to release all the juicy details and bash the dead.
Let's say it is "their fault", is it ok to bash them then?
I'm all for protecting our right as pilots but lets face it, we screw up. And if it's bad enough, people die. Harsh realities I know, but if I screw up and kill others in the process, rip away.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The following is not meant to sound harsh, but it will because it is the internet we are discussing on.
If you did your job right you wouldn't have to defend yourself.
It is a great training tool to be able to go over the flow on either tape or transcripts to see where the break in the chain occurred. In a few of my human factors and accident analysis classes we would watch the videos and recreations of these events and you can learn so much from these events. I don't know why people are focusing so much on morbid issue of it. I look at it more like a med student practicing on an accident cadaver. These are unfortunate events but there is a lot we can learn if we are able to experience it someway first hand.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I feel the same way. We are humans we screw-up.
I am not looking at this as a media standpoint but nearly all of the US can't make an informed decision unless they hear it from a news team trying to up the ratings.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Sorry man... you're really over your head on this one. I'm normally the last guy to pull the whole "you don't do this for a living so what do you know", but in this case...
I do my job right every single day and I bet if you were to pull ANY CVR from ANY one of my flights you could somehow prove I did something wrong.
CVRs are useful to guide an investigation but as far as figuring what went wrong or where a crew failed? Huh... Not bloody likely.
On a slightly more light hearted note, I once flew with a captain who's standard first flight together brief included something about how if we ever got into a situation where it looked liked we were going to die, he wanted his last comment on the CVR to be "did you see that testicals on that thing?"
He's at Southwest now... go figure.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it will be 'pilot error'....however, it's never that simple....and as a pilot, you should know that. Although, it is the convenient sound bite for the media. However, even if you screw up it doesn't mean you should be bashed. In your own acknowledgment, pilots make mistakes. Human error...is well, HUMAN. Yes, it's terrible when people make poor decisions and others die.....but, it will continue to happen and bashing the dead just doesn't solve anything.
It would be better to determine the causal factors involved and try to learn from them.
Not necessarily true. It's not that black and white unfortunately.
For an airliner accident, the CVR transcript is a sufficient learning tool. The FDR is also good for seeing what the airplane was doing. The CVR recording isn't really relevant as a training tool, as it is an investigative tool. That's why it's there. The investigations I've had to be IO on, we review the HUD tapes since they are a combined CVR/FDR in a sense, with the displayed info there. The CVR portion is then transcribed (along with other aircraft's HUD tapes that may have been involved, as well as ATC tapes), and combined into one large transcript. That's probably the best, most complete, learning tool out there.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Again I should probably elaborate a bit more on my statements. I don't mean little mistakes that are correctable and never become accidents or incidents but a continuous err of judgment that ends in an accident.
As we all know there is a chain of events that usually has to happen. Any where along the chain we may have the ability to correct the problem and have a successful outcome. So the more we can learn from others, the more safe we can be when we fly.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
First part there I had to qualify my statement a bit to Bob
As for the second part I also qualified my statement further up as being tapes or transcripts.
First part there I had to qualify my statement a bit to Bob
As for the second part I also qualified my statement further up as being tapes or transcripts.
I know. I was just stating during an investigation where transcripts vs tapes apply in regards to overall usefulness. Each has it's respective strong points.
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Epic post alert: Where a Dash 8 Captain Explains a thing or three.
By now, CessnaFlyer has received my personal apology via PM. I went ballistic on him, and that is true. What else is true is that it was warranted- the apology was to which degree I took it- but I was right. Here's why.
Regional pilots are under intense scrutiny right now. The facts of the hiring frenzy versus experience, the Sully Event, the notion of competence versus experience divided by being human, and toss in what appears to be the darkest corner of professional pilots' reality with the Colgan crash all make me a bit 'tetchy'.
We can very easily point fingers and either give approval or reproach to any given incident. Who can do such a thing with a bit of authenticity, however, is a totally different story. We've all seen the puke inducing "Don't wish them good judgment, Martha" piffle that the King's spew- even though it is utterly true in its totally cornball delivery. This is a backdrop on which I explain...
When you are sitting in what I call the "high chair," you finally understand what the CVR is. It is your epitaph. It is designed to give airline management and the investigators an ILS straight to your competence- regardless of circumstance. Either you win, or you lose big. The checklist? While writ in blood line by line, it is also risk management. Not flight-deck risk management, but exposure to lawsuit risk management. The cynical truth is also a fact. It is designed to hang you. Some way, some how, your arse is on the line, because... oddly... we're human. We're crazily prone to mistakes.
Imagine the myriad ways you have violated sterile cockpit, and project any one of them into a crash.... and you'll see what I mean.
Sure, there are blatant violations of all kinds happening every second a plane is in the sky. Whoopdee doo. But it ain't raining Cessnas, now is it? Do the math, and understand that the one day you have a class 10 cockup up front might not end happily. Would you want folks petitioning the gov't under the FOIA to hear your last words?
Oh, "that" will never happen? Because I read or heard something somewhere, and being a diligent and conscientious pilot will erase that from the possible bad days I may have within 25K hours of flying?
Bollocks. It damned certainly will. Especially because "It will never happen" isn't part of a serious pilot's vocab. And the second it becomes part of a pilot's lexicon, the probability of any number of things happening just went up by infinity.
I can NOT, will NOT, shall NOT, and NEVER tolerate any mode of thought expressed to or near me that puts one above statistics. I go utterly King Kong Feces when that happens. We have... a word I completely hate... 'procedures,' but working against those p-words are a trillion different factors related to being Homo Sapiens. So it goes, and it shall not be forgotten or overlooked. It sure as hell will never be trained away. It is built in to the truly 'professional' (another word I hate) pilot. To them it is known that safety is more luck than... procedure... in this biz, because luck is stacked against us. And who wants to really delve into that abyss? Nobody.
Colgan, the crew involved, their friends, their families, their passengers... Mega damned grim, kids. Very, very bad day. No good news to be seen anywhere regarding it thus far. And when I bitch-slapped the FO for his disgustingly short-sighted, pathetic view on how my brethren and sistren met their fate, he had teeth marks in his arse for a good reason.
It is a dark game, flying planes. We're cheating death, a billion unseen holes in the picture that may or may not one by one show themselves, we're fighting public perception, and dammit... we're having a blast doing it.
That's the final line. We're doing it because we love it. It takes a large measure of humanity to love the engaging part of this job, but as such, we're gonna make mistakes. If we're lucky, we'll be able to tell our grandkids about it, or tell CFIs about it, or bitch-slap FOs about it, or type about it.
The fourth stripe is very heavy, lads. Your SA goes up by a factor of 1000. This is only a tiny bit of why.
-SIG
By now, CessnaFlyer has received my personal apology via PM. I went ballistic on him, and that is true. What else is true is that it was warranted- the apology was to which degree I took it- but I was right. Here's why.
Regional pilots are under intense scrutiny right now. The facts of the hiring frenzy versus experience, the Sully Event, the notion of competence versus experience divided by being human, and toss in what appears to be the darkest corner of professional pilots' reality with the Colgan crash all make me a bit 'tetchy'.
We can very easily point fingers and either give approval or reproach to any given incident. Who can do such a thing with a bit of authenticity, however, is a totally different story. We've all seen the puke inducing "Don't wish them good judgment, Martha" piffle that the King's spew- even though it is utterly true in its totally cornball delivery. This is a backdrop on which I explain...
When you are sitting in what I call the "high chair," you finally understand what the CVR is. It is your epitaph. It is designed to give airline management and the investigators an ILS straight to your competence- regardless of circumstance. Either you win, or you lose big. The checklist? While writ in blood line by line, it is also risk management. Not flight-deck risk management, but exposure to lawsuit risk management. The cynical truth is also a fact. It is designed to hang you. Some way, some how, your arse is on the line, because... oddly... we're human. We're crazily prone to mistakes.
Imagine the myriad ways you have violated sterile cockpit, and project any one of them into a crash.... and you'll see what I mean.
Sure, there are blatant violations of all kinds happening every second a plane is in the sky. Whoopdee doo. But it ain't raining Cessnas, now is it? Do the math, and understand that the one day you have a class 10 cockup up front might not end happily. Would you want folks petitioning the gov't under the FOIA to hear your last words?
Oh, "that" will never happen? Because I read or heard something somewhere, and being a diligent and conscientious pilot will erase that from the possible bad days I may have within 25K hours of flying?
Bollocks. It damned certainly will. Especially because "It will never happen" isn't part of a serious pilot's vocab. And the second it becomes part of a pilot's lexicon, the probability of any number of things happening just went up by infinity.
I can NOT, will NOT, shall NOT, and NEVER tolerate any mode of thought expressed to or near me that puts one above statistics. I go utterly King Kong Feces when that happens. We have... a word I completely hate... 'procedures,' but working against those p-words are a trillion different factors related to being Homo Sapiens. So it goes, and it shall not be forgotten or overlooked. It sure as hell will never be trained away. It is built in to the truly 'professional' (another word I hate) pilot. To them it is known that safety is more luck than... procedure... in this biz, because luck is stacked against us. And who wants to really delve into that abyss? Nobody.
Colgan, the crew involved, their friends, their families, their passengers... Mega damned grim, kids. Very, very bad day. No good news to be seen anywhere regarding it thus far. And when I bitch-slapped the FO for his disgustingly short-sighted, pathetic view on how my brethren and sistren met their fate, he had teeth marks in his arse for a good reason.
It is a dark game, flying planes. We're cheating death, a billion unseen holes in the picture that may or may not one by one show themselves, we're fighting public perception, and dammit... we're having a blast doing it.
That's the final line. We're doing it because we love it. It takes a large measure of humanity to love the engaging part of this job, but as such, we're gonna make mistakes. If we're lucky, we'll be able to tell our grandkids about it, or tell CFIs about it, or bitch-slap FOs about it, or type about it.
The fourth stripe is very heavy, lads. Your SA goes up by a factor of 1000. This is only a tiny bit of why.
-SIG
In a perfect utopia, perhaps, but there are a lot of competing, conflicting interests in an accident and largely, if you can pin blame on the dead, most go home happy because it's not going to cost a cent from the manufacturers having to redesign a system, the company for not having to retrain and the FAA because rules don't need to be modified.
If they can pin it on the dead, everyone washes their hands, pats themselves on the back for a good investigation and goes about their merry way.
Google some of the initial findings and reactions to the Roselawn ATR accdident and the A-320 accident where the plane flew into the trees.
Off the bat, there was pressure to scream "pilot error!" and if they were successful, there would have been many more deaths because the actual problem would never have been solved.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Your attitude apparently towards FOs really takes away from what you wrote. Your point gets lost because people focus on these statements and take them out of context. A pilot's position on the category list, or for that matter, a seniority list doesn't bestow the ability to take a condescending attitude. As far as belittling the idea of procedures and the concept of a "professional" pilot, I feel is a little short sighted. But that's just my opinion, and I really don't see the need to explain myself.
There is never a reason to "bitch slap" anybody because you don't like what the say or write, although, I doubt that you would actually do it in person. With that said, I hope that you have a great day, and remember, someday that FO you "bitch slap" may one day be your captain.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
I understand metaphor. What I'm saying is that people will get hung up on a poor choice of metaphor and quit listening to what he has to say. There were better metaphors to use.
As an example of bad choice of words or metaphor:
In a former life as an repoman, I was in court to see a judge about signing some papers. He was holding traffic court and this young woman was pleading her case about a speeding ticket. She was doing a very good job and was going to get out of it until she said, "That damn cop." The judge stopped her right there, found her guilty and said that her poor choice of words invalidated her entire argument.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
One of the things I don't like about our manuals is the fact they are very vague in some areas. Is this an oversight? Hell, no. If they leave it intentionally vague and the fecal matter hits the rotating blades, well, they can say "pilot error" since the procedure was vague to begin with. Company, at worst, get a slap on the rest and told to clarify the procedure. There's WAY too many "captain's discretion" stuff floating around for legal reasons that will get the company out of hot water just in case. I think they learned this when the TVC accident bit them in the ass with the whole "don't apply max braking even if the runway's contaminated" BS. Went off the end b/c the company wanted to save some $$$ on brakes, so they tossed that in there. It got changed REAL fast after that accident since the FAA caught wind of it. Wanna know how much the airline cares about you? The FAA and NTSB can absolve a captain of all wrong doing and say he followed company procedures to the letter. If you go off the end of the runway, they'll still fire you as a scape goat for the media.
As for "bitch slapping" FOs, well, if someone's got an opinon that's formed on incorrect facts or reflects a lack of respect for people that haven't even had their "trial" yet, they need to be told. Dancing on egg shells isn't gonna solve any problems, and they need to be corrected whether they be CAs, FOs, DOs, CEOs or whatever.
As for "bitch slapping" FOs, well, if someone's got an opinon that's formed on incorrect facts or reflects a lack of respect for people that haven't even had their "trial" yet, they need to be told. Dancing on egg shells isn't gonna solve any problems, and they need to be corrected whether they be CAs, FOs, DOs, CEOs or whatever.