Arrow Availibility or Lack Of

[TheShocker]

I was just wondering if anyone else is experiencing problems getting an Arrow launch. Quite a few of these aircraft were down for mx reasons and there is a back log of students waiting to finish up 414 that are just snagging all the available launches. I just snapped up a launch for next week Sunday/Jan 25th because nothing was available earlier in the week. That was the last launch available for day time hour flying in AIMS. Good luck for those in search of an Arrow.

 

[Farva]

Well being that the arrow's are starting to wear out a little and piper stopped making them they are gonna be more mx heavy. As far as availbility thats due to a overabundunce of people trying to get on a fleet with no more than 15 aircraft. It sucks to hear that but that is how life goes and trust me if there is such a backlog and you can not finish your course within the prescribed time you will get a wavier.

 

[av8or91]

I sat home yesterday for four hours clicking the refresh button in AIMS every 15 minutes and eventually a 3:30 launch opened up and I got it. Im trying to finish 414 before the end of the month so this is not good that the availability sucks.

 

[JaceTheAce]

Yet another reason why potential students should avoid UND at all costs (no pun intended).

 

[roundout]

Yet another reason why potential students should avoid UND at all costs (no pun intended).

Yes, because other schools don't have scheduling problems. Neither do airlines, for that matter.

 

[TXaviator]

Yes, because other schools don't have scheduling problems. Neither do airlines, for that matter.

right, but arrow availability being a CONTINUAL issue.... for at least ever since I got there in 2004... youd think someone with their head screwed on straight and motivated to improve things could come up with a better solution...

 

[400A]

right, but arrow availability being a CONTINUAL issue.... for at least ever since I got there in 2004... youd think someone with their head screwed on straight and motivated to improve things could come up with a better solution...

It is preached in ground school OVER AND OVER again to 323 and 414 students that they are sharing these airplanes during the semester, but no one listens. It is stupid to want UND to have an arrow for every student in 323 and 414, it just doesn't make sense. So everyone screws off for the semester, blames weather and "the man" for them not getting done on time, then complains when there is limited aircraft availability at the start of a new semester.

When I went through school and taught there were just as many weather problems, students, mx problems, etc. I, nor my friends, nor my students ever had problems finishing courses on time. Most of my friends worked 30+ hours a week, most of my students did, I did, so on and so forth.

This constant whining about how evil and inept UND is, is getting old. If those making the all this noise had 2 oz of brain matter between their ears they would be complaining about the real shortfalls at UND and not covering up for their own ineptitude of not being able to take responsibility for their training and finnish on time.

I flew into GFK over Thanksgiving and went up to the tower to chat with some friends while we waited on the med crew, the pattern was EMPTY! A ramp full of airplanes, clear skies and the pattern was EMPTY, save for the few (I think) Chinese students.

Grow up people, you failed at personal responsibility in college and you are trying to lay it at UND's feet.

 

[FlyMan07]

It is preached in ground school OVER AND OVER again to 323 and 414 students that they are sharing these airplanes during the semester, but no one listens. It is stupid to want UND to have an arrow for every student in 323 and 414, it just doesn't make sense. So everyone screws off for the semester, blames weather and "the man" for them not getting done on time, then complains when there is limited aircraft availability at the start of a new semester.

When I went through school and taught there were just as many weather problems, students, mx problems, etc. I, nor my friends, nor my students ever had problems finishing courses on time. Most of my friends worked 30+ hours a week, most of my students did, I did, so on and so forth.

This constant whining about how evil and inept UND is, is getting old. If those making the all this noise had 2 oz of brain matter between their ears they would be complaining about the real shortfalls at UND and not covering up for their own ineptitude of not being able to take responsibility for their training and finnish on time.

I flew into GFK over Thanksgiving and went up to the tower to chat with some friends while we waited on the med crew, the pattern was EMPTY! A ramp full of airplanes, clear skies and the pattern was EMPTY, save for the few (I think) Chinese students.

Grow up people, you failed at personal responsibility in college and you are trying to lay it at UND's feet.

Yup. Because it's really my fault that I finished 222 on time and can now barley even get my permanent Arrow launch due to overbooking. It was hard enough to get a WARG all of last semester, but this is insane!

UND needs to cap the numbers on classes. They have no admission standards and it shows. They'll let 200+ students in when they only have capacity for 150. Students aren't passengers on airlines. You can't overbook students flight slots hoping some don't show up. Plus, there are international students all over the place that get flight launches every day and don't even use them.

Yes, some students are lazy and have problems finishing, but now with most UND flight instructors being part time it is increasingly hard to schedule flights with not only the students class schedule in mind, but the instructors work and class schedule, on top of the horrible aircraft availability.

Not to mention that there is an entire fleet of 172's sitting there that has openings all day and night, but practically no one can use them.

Also, in regards to Thanksgiving, I believe there was just one good flying day over that break and even at that most instructors left town.

Saying UND is not to blame goes a little too far. Students are at fault in some regards, but UND has "blood on their hands" too. With the upcoming focus on having a majority of training being for international students, it's only going to get worse.

 

[400A]

There is no overbooking, if you have a "perm" launch you have an airplane, save for mx or people bringing airplanes back late. The problem is two fold, people accept flight labs that they knowingly cannot meet "hoping" they can schedule launches when they can this is where you think you are seeing over capacity. The second prong is no one is willing to fly on the weekends or take the early morning launches. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that early in every semester the 630 to 930 launches are the most under utilized launches while everyone tries to fly from 1000 to 1600.

Yes UND has lax admission requirements, most state schools do save for some bigger name ones. Hell I got into ASU, that doesn't say much for ASU.

If people would just play by the rules as they are laid out 99% of these problems would go away and the 1% could be rectified or lessened but everyone seems to think they are smarter than those running the show at UND and look for every little kink in the armour to shove a croebar into. They wedge on that kink until it breaks then stand on mount high and proclaim how smart they are for breaking the system and how UND should change everything so as not inconvenience them anymore.

YES, UND has flaws and some things are mismanaged but not a single person here has ever pointed those out and I doubt they even have a clue where to look or what those flaws may be, save for the laptop program.

Listen up at the beginning of each semester when the course lead(s) tell you about all the hangups for that course and do your best to get around them. Every single hangup is based on students not getting lessons done or not taking the warnings about weather problems seriousley and not getting lessons done early. UND is NOT an FBO and is not train at your own pace. You, I hope, chose to come to UND for structured flight training at a reasonable pace (ie not the 30 day CFI thing) so you have to play by the rules UND has in place to get the training done in the alloted time, if you try to buck the system to show how smart you are, you are going to loose, over and over.

 

[juxtapilot]

One thing UND did teach me was good decision making; the decision to not return and have to deal with the massive scheduling issues.

 

[juxtapilot]

YES, UND has flaws and some things are mismanaged but not a single person here has ever pointed those out and I doubt they even have a clue where to look or what those flaws may be, save for the laptop program.

Uh huh.... Believe me, I let them know what some of their flaws were, and I know several others who did as well....

Listen up at the beginning of each semester when the course lead(s) tell you about all the hangups for that course and do your best to get around them. Every single hangup is based on students not getting lessons done or not taking the warnings about weather problems seriousley and not getting lessons done early. UND is NOT an FBO and is not train at your own pace. You, I hope, chose to come to UND for structured flight training at a reasonable pace (ie not the 30 day CFI thing) so you have to play by the rules UND has in place to get the training done in the alloted time, if you try to buck the system to show how smart you are, you are going to loose, over and over.

I took the warnings seriously, and barely finished 221 in time. Weathered 13 times, and not having an aircraft due to scheduling issues another 4 or 5 flights didn't help UND's "It's what you put into it" case...

 

[400A]

Uh huh.... Believe me, I let them know what some of their flaws were, and I know several others who did as well....



I took the warnings seriously, and barely finished 221 in time. Weathered 13 times, and not having an aircraft due to scheduling issues another 4 or 5 flights didn't help UND's "It's what you put into it" case...

Wait, you were weathered 13 times, and lost another 4 launches and STILL finished on time and your complaint is....that you finnished on time???? You prove my point. Loosing, by your math, 17 launches, over a months worth of scheduled flights, and you still managed to finish on time but you want sympathy for those who can't pull it together?

You did what you were supposed to and "put into it" and finished on time, good for you. I do doubt that you or anyone currently at UND has any clue what the real flaws and weaknesses are, or you all would be complaining about them instead of complaining about how you are weathered and cancelled so much that you actually finished your course on time...

 

[av8or91]

I asked one of the "big wigs" today why the arrows are so booked this is truly a time we can blame the contract students. The the tokai students were not finished and the air china students have caught up with them so you have two contract classes trying to schedule which is causing the nightmare. Then you have all the 323 and 414 finish ups from last semester and you get what we have now. I barely got a plane today after 3 arrows were in for maintenance but got lucky as one was just released while I was waiting. Doesnt sound like its going to clear up anytime soon thoughanic:

 

[TheShocker]

I asked one of the "big wigs" today why the arrows are so booked this is truly a time we can blame the contract students. The the tokai students were not finished and the air china students have caught up with them so you have two contract classes trying to schedule which is causing the nightmare. Then you have all the 323 and 414 finish ups from last semester and you get what we have now. I barely got a plane today after 3 arrows were in for maintenance but got lucky as one was just released while I was waiting. Doesnt sound like its going to clear up anytime soon thoughanic:

So our problem is simple. UND does not have the extra capacity with the Arrow when it comes to handling contract students, undergraduate students, and the mx issues that are usually part of the equation when the temperatures are brutally cold. For those hoping to voice their concerns as their is some official recognition of its validity, please show up at Clifford 210, Thursday at 6:00PM.
E-mail received today:

When: Thursday, January 22, 6:00 p.m.
Where: Clifford Hall room 210

Flight Operations is hosting a student forum this Thursday to answer and address any of your questions and concerns.

Some of the areas we plan to address:
>> Aircraft availability
>> The fleet transition to the Cessna 172
>> Flight course pre-requisites
>> The role international flight training has at UND



Thank you all,

 

[TheShocker]

Just checked AIMs a few minutes ago, and this was available. If someone needs a launch, they should hurry and snag that 2:00PM one next week Monday.

 

[oktex88]

Maybe they can get some more Arrows in from the Satellite Schools like they did last semester. This seems like it's Deja Vu with the sims last semester.

 

[AngelFuree]

400A,

I admit you raise some* valid points. However, you seem to always be on the defense when, I'm assuming, you haven't instructed at UND for a while. Not everything you say is entirely accurate and what others have brought here are noteworthy issues. I stopped working at UND not too long ago (October '08). The scheduling thing was getting out of control and a big part of it was to blame on contract students, but more importantly, the leads. Instructors were forced to schedule launches (non-permanent) ONE WEEK in advance for the contract students. This created a HUGE problem.

Take this as an example: I did stage checks with two Air China students who were on a 221 stage 20 WHO HAD NOT completed the stage yet, but were forced to have block 2 simulator launches scheduled for the week in advance in case* they passed, to prevent any hiccup in THEIR training. This pressure came from the leads by matter of the contract companies.

Both students failed their stage checks, and now those simulator launches that could have been scheduled in advance by university students, were no longer available. It's a complete waste. So you'd have these simulator launches freeing up only a half day before the launch at which point made it really hard for the flight instructors to accomodate the short-notice launches. This created a really bad problem which is why we had some crazy weeks at Ryan Hall.

In essence, it DOES create an "overbooking" type situation.

I have no idea how it is now, thus, cannot comment on it. However, if those problems haven't been addressed, I can see it happening all over again.

 

[Farva]

It is preached in ground school OVER AND OVER again to 323 and 414 students that they are sharing these airplanes during the semester, but no one listens. It is stupid to want UND to have an arrow for every student in 323 and 414, it just doesn't make sense. So everyone screws off for the semester, blames weather and "the man" for them not getting done on time, then complains when there is limited aircraft availability at the start of a new semester.

When I went through school and taught there were just as many weather problems, students, mx problems, etc. I, nor my friends, nor my students ever had problems finishing courses on time. Most of my friends worked 30+ hours a week, most of my students did, I did, so on and so forth.

This constant whining about how evil and inept UND is, is getting old. If those making the all this noise had 2 oz of brain matter between their ears they would be complaining about the real shortfalls at UND and not covering up for their own ineptitude of not being able to take responsibility for their training and finnish on time.

I flew into GFK over Thanksgiving and went up to the tower to chat with some friends while we waited on the med crew, the pattern was EMPTY! A ramp full of airplanes, clear skies and the pattern was EMPTY, save for the few (I think) Chinese students.

Grow up people, you failed at personal responsibility in college and you are trying to lay it at UND's feet.

Here Here man, I agree with ya. To AngelFurree while I left back in Feb 08 I do still have friends instructing and teaching at UND Aerospace and while I do agree the contract students are making the schedule go nuts, I think what 400A is trying to say is stop the bitching and moaning. If you dont like UND then leave and let it be at that(no name calling, or bashing). If you did stick around then you can make your own opinion about UND but to drag it on and on, on every thred is well pretty old and well the sad thing people are starting not to take peoples comments about UND seriously because its so perpetual.

I am not to say that UND had treated me so perfect while I trained and worked there, I did have issues and they were very valid, but avaition is a tough industry and problems come by, I participated fully in my training and went at my launch times and even with bad weather, mx issues, cold and flu season, and midterm exams, i still finished on time except for one course.(CFI) I was a part 61 CFI because I am a big guy and couldnt do spin training at UND. outside of that course I finished on time all of the time.

So thats my speel and I am going to sleep cause I got a 4am call.

-Farva

 

[AngelFuree]

To AngelFurree ...

Well, I don't know if you're preaching to me at all. Regardless, I never really had a hard time finishing up a course (ok, except 325, but that was for my own reasons), but I can't use my previous experience to judge what is happening now or what will happen later. Like I said, before I quit instructing at UND, scheduling was definitely a LOT more hectic than it was when I was a student there. The contract students played a big role in this difference. When I was a student, it wasn't hard to schedule Warriors. When I was an instructor, it was pretty tough scheduling certain airplanes. The new Cessnas were never an issue, luckily.

edit: Oh, and I don't think this is another "GFK sucks thread." It seems like a genuine concern by the OP. I, personally, gave up on bitching about GFK two years ago. I'm not there anymore, anyway. Anyway, time for bed here too.

 

[Farva]

not preachin just agree with your statement about the scheduling of students. The preaching was more in agreeance of what 400A said.