We're going to meet. I'm trying hard to do the JC Meet & Greet, so hopefully we'll find an opportunity when our schedules clear to do so.
. . .heck, I might be your unruly passenger one day.
Are You Applying FDC Notams?
- Thread starter tgrayson
- Start date
We're going to meet. I'm trying hard to do the JC Meet & Greet, so hopefully we'll find an opportunity when our schedules clear to do so.
. . .heck, I might be your unruly passenger one day.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
We're going to meet. I'm trying hard to do the JC Meet & Greet, so hopefully we'll find an opportunity when our schedules clear to do so.
. . .heck, I might be your unruly passenger one day.
Until then bro, I'd do what I do and withhold judgment about ANYBODY on these forums. The guys I've argued with the most on these forums are the dudes I've gotten along with the best, to tell you the truth (if anybody remembers me and FL270 going at each others throats, and then hanging out together in Utah/Vegas). And every time I thought to myself, "That guy is a complete jackass!" I've met them and thought, "This is guy is a complete jackass, I love this guy!!!"
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
Honestly, I don't think it's a matter of being a jerk or not.
You and BobD are first officers. It is your job to make sure that the PIC dots all of the "i"s and crosses all of the "t"s. If I fail to notice a NOTAM that will impact our operation and you have allowed me to just dismiss it because the leg is too short to worry, then you're nothing more than a passenger.
I can't begin to imagine why you would allow the company to push you around like this? Once you push back from the gate they can't do a thing to you! Set the brake and do what you have to do!
I've only been out of the airline business for three years, so I find it hard to believe that PIC authority has been neutered so much that the GATE AGENT can somehow force you to dismiss preflight planning in favor of a quick pushback.
Integrity: The quality of an individual (or crew) that does the right thing even when no one is watching.
Follow the regs folks. Nobody has your back but the person you share the cockpit with.
You and BobD are first officers. It is your job to make sure that the PIC dots all of the "i"s and crosses all of the "t"s. If I fail to notice a NOTAM that will impact our operation and you have allowed me to just dismiss it because the leg is too short to worry, then you're nothing more than a passenger.
I can't begin to imagine why you would allow the company to push you around like this? Once you push back from the gate they can't do a thing to you! Set the brake and do what you have to do!
I've only been out of the airline business for three years, so I find it hard to believe that PIC authority has been neutered so much that the GATE AGENT can somehow force you to dismiss preflight planning in favor of a quick pushback.
Integrity: The quality of an individual (or crew) that does the right thing even when no one is watching.
Follow the regs folks. Nobody has your back but the person you share the cockpit with.
Mavmb and JTrain do, in fact, have a lovechild.
Weird things happen on the innernets.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
As I said, you can hang us, or we can have a frank discussion about the realities that we're dealing with.
Your choice.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
Jtrain,
If I didn't have a fairly accurate idea of the realities you're dealing with by the fact that over the last 13 years I've flown for airlines such as Chautauqua, AirTran, US Airways, and Comair... I might have need to have that frank discussion.
But the fact is that I was there, and although I did not work for Continental Express I can't imagine there are that many differences. We all had quick-turns. We all had reams of paper for each release. We all had Captains who allowed themselves to be pushed when they shouldn't.
I guess I just don't see the difference between what you are facing today, and what we all faced over the last 10-15 years.
I mean this with the utmost respect. I was a commuter pilot when being a commuter pilot meant spinning the props on the Jetstream to cool the shaft after each flight. I KNOW what you are going through. I know how tough it can be. But Doug's right. Don't get violated at the regionals. That's a career killer.
If I didn't have a fairly accurate idea of the realities you're dealing with by the fact that over the last 13 years I've flown for airlines such as Chautauqua, AirTran, US Airways, and Comair... I might have need to have that frank discussion.
But the fact is that I was there, and although I did not work for Continental Express I can't imagine there are that many differences. We all had quick-turns. We all had reams of paper for each release. We all had Captains who allowed themselves to be pushed when they shouldn't.
I guess I just don't see the difference between what you are facing today, and what we all faced over the last 10-15 years.
I mean this with the utmost respect. I was a commuter pilot when being a commuter pilot meant spinning the props on the Jetstream to cool the shaft after each flight. I KNOW what you are going through. I know how tough it can be. But Doug's right. Don't get violated at the regionals. That's a career killer.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
By frank, I meant on our part.
And I appreciate your clarification. As I said, I'd never miss anything, I'm perfect and I'd never let myself get rushed. To admit to anything else would mean that I'd violated a ton of FAR's right?
But if you want honesty, then you've seen a bit of it in this thread. If you'd like guys to shut up and say, "Nope, you're right! Shouldn't have said a thing" then you can get that too, but I'd prefer to be frank about this because it's something that bugs me.
To be real honest I thought everybody's release was in the same format as ours (as far as NOTAMs went) and I'll be sending an e-mail to safety about this issue, beacuse the formatting convention we have right now DOES NOT lend to the speed at which we're running of the gate sometimes. It's not that the information isn't there, and it's not that we're just like, "Screw NOTAMs! We dont' need 'em!" but things DO get lost in the shuffle sometimes.
On some flights we've got tons of time to say to each other, "WTF does THAT mean!?" but other times we've got enough time to run checklists. Maybe I'm new, maybe I'm not efficient enough, but Ethan's been doing this gig longer than me and it sounds like he runs into the same problem at times.
And if you think you can just enter a hold for anything, well, check your PM's...
And I appreciate your clarification. As I said, I'd never miss anything, I'm perfect and I'd never let myself get rushed. To admit to anything else would mean that I'd violated a ton of FAR's right?
But if you want honesty, then you've seen a bit of it in this thread. If you'd like guys to shut up and say, "Nope, you're right! Shouldn't have said a thing" then you can get that too, but I'd prefer to be frank about this because it's something that bugs me.
To be real honest I thought everybody's release was in the same format as ours (as far as NOTAMs went) and I'll be sending an e-mail to safety about this issue, beacuse the formatting convention we have right now DOES NOT lend to the speed at which we're running of the gate sometimes. It's not that the information isn't there, and it's not that we're just like, "Screw NOTAMs! We dont' need 'em!" but things DO get lost in the shuffle sometimes.
On some flights we've got tons of time to say to each other, "WTF does THAT mean!?" but other times we've got enough time to run checklists. Maybe I'm new, maybe I'm not efficient enough, but Ethan's been doing this gig longer than me and it sounds like he runs into the same problem at times.
And if you think you can just enter a hold for anything, well, check your PM's...
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
John, I'm with Zap on this one. Maybe it's b/c I'm at an airline that WOULD push you to leave without giving you time to check all the NOTAMs. If the CP at XJT would give you greif over that, then XJT isn't the company it used to be.
If the CA feels pressured to do a flight but doesn't feel comfortable b/c he hasn't had a chance to look at all the info he needs to......he shouldn't do the flight. Period. Doesn't matter if ops, the CP or the CEO are standing at the door of the jetbridge. If an FO feels uncomfortable about it, he should either get with the CA to get the questions answered or look at the NOTAMs himself and get the info. Bottom line is, if either pilot isn't comfortable, the flight shouldn't take off. I'd even go so far as saying the flight shouldn't leave the gate.
We've already got dispatch, ops and management pushing pilots over issues like wx, alternates and fatigue. Let's not let them push people around over NOTAMs, too.
If the CA feels pressured to do a flight but doesn't feel comfortable b/c he hasn't had a chance to look at all the info he needs to......he shouldn't do the flight. Period. Doesn't matter if ops, the CP or the CEO are standing at the door of the jetbridge. If an FO feels uncomfortable about it, he should either get with the CA to get the questions answered or look at the NOTAMs himself and get the info. Bottom line is, if either pilot isn't comfortable, the flight shouldn't take off. I'd even go so far as saying the flight shouldn't leave the gate.
We've already got dispatch, ops and management pushing pilots over issues like wx, alternates and fatigue. Let's not let them push people around over NOTAMs, too.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Steve....you know what, screw it. I'm going to bed so I can do a flight tomorrow without reading NOTAMs and complain the whole way about how horrible my pay is and how much my job sucks.
(In other words something is getting lost in the translation here and I'm done trying to clarify myself)
(In other words something is getting lost in the translation here and I'm done trying to clarify myself)
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
No, I think the translation was pretty clear . . .
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
You know, and I hate to admit it...but I don't check NOTAMs as frequently as I should.
Definitely an area that I need to work on. Already started a little NOTAM book for the local area.
Definitely an area that I need to work on. Already started a little NOTAM book for the local area.
Anyone have jtrain's cell number? Call him with a NOTAMs alert. I think he's overpaid, but what do I know?
. . .I do love MY job! Interacting with astronauts is nice, and they don't complain about their pay.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
What do astronaut's make?
I have no problem with setting the brake (or letting the captain set the brake) and make sure everything gets done. Doug is right... a GOOD chief pilot would back you on something like that (unfortunately of our 3, I don't think any would... but eff em, it's not their license on the line).
The problem I have with the NOTAM system (and maybe it is more about the presentation that we get) is that they are no standard wordings or contractions. The FAA FDC office is changing this in the near future, but for now having to read the word "tower" as "tower", "twr" and "towr" is just annoying. Also, the way we get dispatched the first NOTAM I see might be about my destination airport, then there are a few for towers with lights out enroute (who cares really) and then have some about the departure airport and then some more about the arrival airport. And then the computer runs out of space to put them so it goes on and prints up the ops bulletins and then prints the rest of the NOTAMs (and of course doesn't tell you there are more at the end of the weather packet).
We've been trying for several years now (though ALPA Airsafety) to get the ordering cleaned up, but "these things take time" or so they tell us.
I have no problem with setting the brake (or letting the captain set the brake) and make sure everything gets done. Doug is right... a GOOD chief pilot would back you on something like that (unfortunately of our 3, I don't think any would... but eff em, it's not their license on the line).
The problem I have with the NOTAM system (and maybe it is more about the presentation that we get) is that they are no standard wordings or contractions. The FAA FDC office is changing this in the near future, but for now having to read the word "tower" as "tower", "twr" and "towr" is just annoying. Also, the way we get dispatched the first NOTAM I see might be about my destination airport, then there are a few for towers with lights out enroute (who cares really) and then have some about the departure airport and then some more about the arrival airport. And then the computer runs out of space to put them so it goes on and prints up the ops bulletins and then prints the rest of the NOTAMs (and of course doesn't tell you there are more at the end of the weather packet).
We've been trying for several years now (though ALPA Airsafety) to get the ordering cleaned up, but "these things take time" or so they tell us.
tgrayson
New Member
Ok, I'll accept that. Do you think there might be a bit of complacency when flying into a bigger, well-known airport? After all, vectors to an ILS are sort of a no brainer. Even though airplanes ignored this notam for several days, no one came close to hitting anything.
Also, how might the scheduling practices of the airlines contribute to a problem? As some have pointed out, having only a few minutes before flight to review notams lends itself to missing something.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
That is a real dangerous conclusion to be coming to. This "example" is a great lesson in attention to detail, but to say that every other pilot was ignoring or had not read the NOTAM just because your friend went missed is a bit of a stretch. None of us were in any of those cockpits that made it in, let us not be too quick to start throwing around judgements and conclusions without facts, only fact being is one airplane went missed and made it in on another runway with 100 foot lower minimums, hardly conclusive to anything.
All that being said, read the NOTAMs folks, take the time, take the 5 minute delay, do whatever because Dash8s aren't meant to go through 2 foot snow drifts :banghead:
Nick
Well-Known Member
So far this is what I've experienced at the regional airline I fly for.
The NOTAMs are a captain thing.
One of them actually told me that I was the first FO he'd seen reading the NOTAMs in months. That scares me a little, but it goes along with a lot of other things I see too. Stuff that should be reviewed by both pilots but only get done by the captain because . . . well, I have no idea.
The NOTAMs on our releases are not in a reader friendly format but then again, is a METAR or a TAF? I don't think so. All of the aviation stuff is in a "secret code" that only pilots and dispatchers can decipher. It's 2007 -- that stuff should not be in a non-reader friendly code, but as long as it is then it is part of our job description to make sure that it is okay to fly into an airport with its current set of NOTAMs.
If I'm the first pilot to see the release, I put a check mark to the side of any NOTAM that I think could effect our flight and a little X next to ones that are obviously not applicable.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I wish that any unlit tower that is not within the standard service volume of a localizer or glideslope would not be published as a NOTAM. If an airport has one runway, 18/36 and there is a NOTAM for an unlit tower 200' AGL 2 miles west of the airport, then I feel like I wasted my time reading that because it is a ridiculous thing to write. There's trees that are almost that tall.
Perhaps they are included as NOTAMs only if they penetrate a certain zone specified in TERPS but as far as I can tell, there are a lot of unlit towers in the NOTAMs that seem like they do nothing more than clutter up the release and make take longer to find the NOTAMs that are actually pertinent to the mission.
Any idea of what it takes for an unlit tower to become a NOTAM? I'm curious.
Xcaliber
El Chupacabra
I'm too lazy to look up the answer for your last question, but please remember that not everybody flies IFR. Everybody keeps bashing the unlit towers, but if I'm flying MVFR at night (which happens fairly often in ND), I definitely check the NOTAMs so I know which towers along my route are going to sneak up on me. They're there for those of us who have to provide our own obstacle clearance.