Are You Applying FDC Notams?

tgrayson

tgrayson

New Member
Friend of mine flying for a regional based in Memphis had to go missed the other day on 36R coming into Memphis, due to the increase in DA based on this NOTAM:

MEM FI/T MEMPHIS INTL, MEMPHIS,
TN. ILS RWY 36R AMDT 2A...S-ILS: DA 632/HAT 297
ALL CATS. FOR INOPERATIVE ALSF, INCREASE
S-ILS 36R VISIBILITY ALL CATS TO RVR 5000.
UNLESS OTHERWISE ADVISED BY ATC.
TEMPORARY CRANE 440 MSL, 1294 FEET SE OF
RWY 36R.

As far as he can tell, he was the only plane to go missed that day. One plane after the other landed after him on 36R and he barely made it in on a different runway with 100 ft lower minimums. His conclusion is that most pilots don't read and apply NOTAMS. He questioned a number of pilots who successfully landed on 36R and none of them were aware of the NOTAM, even though it had been out a while, so they were using the unadjusted DA. One FO offered the defense that the busyness of the cockpit often precluded a conscientious examination and application of the NOTAMS.

Seems like an undesirable habit, IMO.
 
My company uses NOS plates, so my technique is to pencil in any notam changes like that right on the affected plate. If the notam goes away, I can erase it. But in the meantime, I don't have to think about it until I shoot the approach, open up the plate, and see my own note. TEB has had a NOTAM raising the mins for rwy 6 for months now.
 
Anytime I go IFR or to an unfamiliar airport, I get the full DUATS briefing before I file, including the NOTAMS. I learned my lesson in my private pilot days.
 
The current NOTAM system is a joke. They are not standard, they are not uniform and they are often times not even current. In our normal weather packet we get NOTAMs for our departure and destination (plus alternate) airports plus any enroute stuff we should know. The problem with this is often times that amounts to three or four pages of NOTAMs, which simply can not all be read during a 25 minute turn. Other problems include getting multiple NOTAMs for things I don't really care about (NDBs unusable at airports I can't get a jet into) and not having NOTAMs for things I actually need to know (like the primary runway at our destination airport being closed for repainting). I have no idea how the dispatch computers pull pertinent NOTAMs and a lot of the problem involves the fact that they just aren't classified in any useful manner.
 
Of course we use the FDC notams when flying IFR!

Yeah, some of them are olllld, but everyonce in a while a new one pops out. (I know... i like to state the obvious :P)
 
BobDDuck said:
The current NOTAM system is a joke. They are not standard, they are not uniform and they are often times not even current. In our normal weather packet we get NOTAMs for our departure and destination (plus alternate) airports plus any enroute stuff we should know. The problem with this is often times that amounts to three or four pages of NOTAMs, which simply can not all be read during a 25 minute turn. Other problems include getting multiple NOTAMs for things I don't really care about (NDBs unusable at airports I can't get a jet into) and not having NOTAMs for things I actually need to know (like the primary runway at our destination airport being closed for repainting). I have no idea how the dispatch computers pull pertinent NOTAMs and a lot of the problem involves the fact that they just aren't classified in any useful manner.
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Ethan is spot on. On the longer legs it's easier to get up and take some time to look over all the NOTAM's, but when you're going EWR-BWI on a quick turn there's almost way to look at all the information.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Heck yeah we check the NOTAMS.

It's your job.
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Not always possible when your company doesn't give you the time to do your job when you're flying turboprop routes at jet speeds. When you're blocked at 30 minutes for a flight and you're sending the in range while passing through 10,000' and briefing the approach before you get to cruise and you just got shoved off the gate 10 minutes after getting the paperwork, trying to catch everything on 20 pages of paper (after of course making sure everything is legal, such as your alternate etc.) is nearly impossible. The formatting convention could be changed dramatically and make it MUCH easier to catch everything you need.

EDIT: I'm not saying I ever miss things, ever, because that would be an implication that I'd violated a bunch of FAR's, but for discussions sake...
 
For those of us who don't have dispatchers it's pretty easy to get NOTAMS for the departure, arrival, and alternate airports.

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/geo/geoQuery.html

Doesn't take 2 minutes to look through them and determine if any of the changes apply to your operation.

Bobdduck -- Take it from a former Bluestreaker. If you get violated or, worse yet, dent and airplane as a result of lack of knowledge of applicable NOTAMs, PSA will NOT stand behind you and ALPA will have a tough time of it.

Jtrain -- Don't let your company push you around. Vote with your parking brake. Go ahead and push back, get an on-time departure, set the brakes and continue to prepare for the flight if you're not ready. The "it's only a 30 minute flight" will not impress the FAA and it doesn't impress me as one of your airline's customers one bit.

Failure to check NOTAMS prior to every flight could be considered a violation of FAR 91.103 (or 91.137 in the case of TFRs).

You guys get paid by the hour. Push back, taxi to the corner of the ramp, and give them a quick look-see if the flight is too short to do so enroute. Don't allow your PIC to get you violated. If they fail to brief you on NOTAMs, ASK them.
 
Train, that's why the biggest safety device the captain has is the parking brake.

If you allow yourself to be 'pilot pushed' and then you bend metal, it's going to be you and the skipper on the carpet, not the nice old 63 year old grandmother in marketing that created the schedule.

Seriously though. NOTAMS are life and death in many countries. We're lucky because we have standards here in the US, but in many other parts of the world, if you don't check NOTAMS, you're going to git yo'self kilt dead.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
For those of us who don't have dispatchers it's pretty easy to get NOTAMS for the departure, arrival, and alternate airports.

https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/geo/geoQuery.html

Doesn't take 2 minutes to look through them and determine if any of the changes apply to your operation.

Bobdduck -- Take it from a former Bluestreaker. If you get violated or, worse yet, dent and airplane as a result of lack of knowledge of applicable NOTAMs, PSA will NOT stand behind you and ALPA will have a tough time of it.

Failure to check NOTAMS prior to every flight could be considered a violation of FAR 91.103 (or 91.137 in the case of TFRs).

You guys get paid by the hour. Push back, taxi to the corner of the ramp, and give them a quick look-see if the flight is too short to do so enroute. Don't allow your PIC to get you violated. If they fail to brief you on NOTAMs, ASK them.
Click to expand...

Not saying I'm disagreeing with you per se, but how many times do you think you could pull that stunt until the chief comes to talk with you about the future at the company?
 
jtrain609 said:
Not always possible when your company doesn't give you the time to do your job when you're flying turboprop routes at jet speeds. When you're blocked at 30 minutes for a flight and you're sending the in range while passing through 10,000' and briefing the approach before you get to cruise and you just got shoved off the gate 10 minutes after getting the paperwork, trying to catch everything on 20 pages of paper (after of course making sure everything is legal, such as your alternate etc.) is nearly impossible. The formatting convention could be changed dramatically and make it MUCH easier to catch everything you need.

EDIT: I'm not saying I ever miss things, ever, because that would be an implication that I'd violated a bunch of FAR's, but for discussions sake...
Click to expand...

So take more time to do it. That's your job.
 
jtrain609 said:
Not saying I'm disagreeing with you per se, but how many times do you think you could pull that stunt until the chief comes to talk with you about the future at the company?
Click to expand...

I've never heard word one from anyone about crew delays. I take as much time as I need, if that makes us late, so be it.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Train, that's why the biggest safety device the captain has is the parking brake.

If you allow yourself to be 'pilot pushed' and then you bend metal, it's going to be you and the skipper on the carpet, not the nice old 63 year old grandmother in marketing that created the schedule.

Seriously though. NOTAMS are life and death in many countries. We're lucky because we have standards here in the US, but in many other parts of the world, if you don't check NOTAMS, you're going to git yo'self kilt dead.
Click to expand...

True enough, but when ops is calling you when you're 1 minute late pushing off the gate, what do you expect but for people to rush? Some captains will tell the company to shove it, some will allow themselves to get rushed it seems.

Maybe it's different at your company, and it's great and all to say, "YOU'VE GOTTA CHECK ALL THIS CRAP NO MATTER WHAT!" But if you want to have a frank discussion about this from the level that me and Ethan are at, this is what's happening. The formatting is horrible and mostly useless and doesn't lend itself to finding all the information you need.

I'm only just off high mins and I've seen guys get rushed trying to get off the gate more than a handful of times.
 
jtrain609 said:
Not saying I'm disagreeing with you per se, but how many times do you think you could pull that stunt until the chief comes to talk with you about the future at the company?
Click to expand...

If your chief pilot is worth a dookie, you won't hear a peep.

Don't get violated at the regionals man. That crap'll bring a your career to a dead end.
 
On my CFII ride the examiner did not check the NOTAM for a change to the missed approach procedure.

When I announced missed and started flying the new procedure he Yelled and yelled and yelled that I was doing it wrong; but I had the NOTAM printed out and handed it to him.

"Very good, carry on" was pretty much all he said the rest of the ride.
 
jtrain609 said:
True enough, but when ops is calling you when you're 1 minute late pushing off the gate, what do you expect but for people to rush? Some captains will tell the company to shove it, some will allow themselves to get rushed it seems.

Maybe it's different at your company, and it's great and all to say, "YOU'VE GOTTA CHECK ALL THIS CRAP NO MATTER WHAT!" But if you want to have a frank discussion about this from the level that me and Ethan are at, this is what's happening. The formatting is horrible and mostly useless and doesn't lend itself to finding all the information you need.

I'm only just off high mins and I've seen guys get rushed trying to get off the gate more than a handful of times.
Click to expand...

The formatting is bad, but you can make it easier. For example, for NOTAMS applying to approaches, the type of approach is near the beginning. RNAV, ILS, NBD, etc. Skip the ones you're not going to do. Mark ones that may apply so you can find them easily if needed. At the beginning of the day/trip I'll check NOTAMS for all airports that we are going to. Mostly they don't affect us, but if I see any that do then I'll make a note of it. Then when actually doing the leg, I review the list to see if anything changed.

There is a difference between going quickly and rushing. You should never let yourself get rushed, regardless of what the captain is doing. As Doug said, if your chief pilot is worth anything, you'll never hear a word about it.
 
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