Are the airlines really hiring more pilots?

Pilot Fighter said:
True. But for the last few years, requirements were pretty demanding for regional new-hires.
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That's true, but there was also very little hiring during that time. Age 65 stagnated the entire industry and minimums went up as a result. I will flat guarantee you that we'd be seeing people with wet commercial licenses being hired again had the regulation not changed.

I was hired at Pinnacle in March 2008 and at least half of the people being hired at the time were sub 300 hours. One kid a few classes in front of mine had a total of 180 hours. I, for one, am very happy that that is not possible anymore.
 
I really hope that at some point in the future there will be a pilot shortage at the major/legacy level. It would be a happy place with unicorns and rainbows and everyone would be paid what they are worth and no crappy management (unicorns eat evil CEOs). However what I am afraid will happen is that the major/legacys will cut capacity, so they may still have to hire some but it won't be the "pilot shortage" we have all been hearing about.
* All subject to change of course if another 9/11 type event or economic downturn happens again.
 
Johnny Beau Bekkestad said:
The one benefit i see by airlines "Taking in under their wings" junior (250TT) pilots is the fact that they can actually form and build a pilot in a safe way, before he or she has had too much time to build up their own way of doing things.
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I just can't agree with that. So if a pilot has 1500+ hrs vs 250 they are incapable of doing new things? I was hired at my regional with aprox 3000hrs, with numerous past jobs and a healthy amount of PIC time, but I still conform and follow the airline SOP every day.

The issue I have with the 250hr pilots is that not only did they not have any real world experience, I feel like many were doing a disservice to themselves as well by not getting some quality PIC time prior to an airline job. I work with and have met many FO's who were hired back in 07-08 with a wet ticket and have twice my time, but the only PIC they have is from their initial training.

The regional airlines are definitely starting to scrape the bottom once again trying to fill their seats. I spoke with an LCA a couple weeks back about our new hires, and he told me he's had many who have needed well over 100hrs of IOE before sign off. He also mentioned he flew with one who, during their flight, got to shoot his first approach in actual. I think my jaw dropped learning that. I can't even imagine what the public would think if they found out their pilot up front had never actually landed a plane while in the clouds before.

I've said it before many times, the front of a 50,000lb+ jet airliner should not be a place where you go to simply build time.
 
Mark815 said:
I just can't agree with that. So if a pilot has 1500+ hrs vs 250 they are incapable of doing new things? I was hired at my regional with aprox 3000hrs, with numerous past jobs and a healthy amount of PIC time, but I still conform and follow the airline SOP every day.

The issue I have with the 250hr pilots is that not only did they not have any real world experience, I feel like many were doing a disservice to themselves as well by not getting some quality PIC time prior to an airline job. I work with and have met many FO's who were hired back in 07-08 with a wet ticket and have twice my time, but the only PIC they have is from their initial training.

The regional airlines are definitely starting to scrape the bottom once again trying to fill their seats. I spoke with an LCA a couple weeks back about our new hires, and he told me he's had many who have needed well over 100hrs of IOE before sign off. He also mentioned he flew with one who, during their flight, got to shoot his first approach in actual. I think my jaw dropped learning that. I can't even imagine what the public would think if they found out their pilot up front had never actually landed a plane while in the clouds before.

I've said it before many times, the front of a 50,000lb+ jet airliner should not be a place where you go to simply build time.
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Not necessarily disagree with you, but a pilot needs to build up the 1250 hours in order to be hired.
What do you think is the best option to build hours then?
CFI for 1250 hours and take controls about every 100 some hours and do 3 take of and landings every 90 days etc...
Tow banners up and down the coastline in severe cavok...
Pipeline patrol is probably pretty ok
135 perhaps but they want 135 mins as well.
Or a scenario where the prospect pilot can get 1250 hours in a jet with a senior captain who can teach him and build him in a good way.
Perhaps its time to bring back second officers or flight engineers.
 
Actually I see the 135 industry beginning to take advantage of more and more low time pilots in the future. All they have to do is make it rain for the " buy a safety rating " companies and boom... cheap SICs to abuse for 2 to 4 years.
I understand that there are some decent 135 companies out there with great training programs, good people and that operate in a safe manner, I've worked for them and flown with some terrific pilots and role models over the years, just saying all 135 companies are not equal.
 
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Blackhawk said:
Not necessarily. I've flown with FOs with a bunch of Africa time who thought we were still flying in the bush. We weren't. I've flown with FOs who were former C-130 pilots who flew like we had a load from the 505th PIR in the back of an ATR. They weren't and they were not amused when he honked into a 60 degree bank on the down wind. Neither was I.
The 1500 hour rule will help me. It is creating a pilot shortage and will lead to an increase in FFD pilot wages- I think. But I don't think it will help safety. Personally I think we are close to another Colgen 3407. Why? It's complex, but basically we are getting a decrease in the experience level in the front as pilots chase fast upgrades.
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I fear for west Alaska because of this phenomenon, I suspect that we've already seen a little bit of this up north.
 
Eagle421flyer said:
I really hope that at some point in the future there will be a pilot shortage at the major/legacy level. It would be a happy place with unicorns and rainbows and everyone would be paid what they are worth and no crappy management (unicorns eat evil CEOs). However what I am afraid will happen is that the major/legacys will cut capacity, so they may still have to hire some but it won't be the "pilot shortage" we have all been hearing about.
* All subject to change of course if another 9/11 type event or economic downturn happens again.
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"I like unicorns."
 
alaskadrifter said:
More SIC programs like Hageland's would help guys get prepared.
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You're talking about the operation that wrapped (large number) of airplanes around mountainsides and got an angry, very public spanking from the National Transportation Safety Board, right? (And quite a few near-misses related to icing and loss of control on the 121 side to boot that easily could have resulted in loss of the airplane.)

Prepared for what, precisely?
 
Jonathan Jerome said:
Honestly it doesn't seem to me like they are, I am still doing my flight training so I am not sure if they are. Does anyone know what are airlines are actually hiring more(if they are)?
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Major airlines are hiring at an unprecedented rate. This could have positive and negative effects. For example, if the legacies continue to hire 1000+ a year and then something unforeseen happens and major capacity has to be cut it could really put a slow down on hiring for a long, long time, even with all the retirements coming up.

I think the most likely pilot shortage scenario is not necessarily a lack of applicants, but a lack of training ability with the enormous amount of movement and retirements. In fact, we've already seen it at United last summer, and DL is having huge gaps in the training profiles simply for lack of sim availability... and this is mostly due to growth.
 
mastermags said:
Major airlines are hiring at an unprecedented rate. This could have positive and negative effects. For example, if the legacies continue to hire 1000+ a year and then something unforeseen happens and major capacity has to be cut it could really put a slow down on hiring for a long, long time, even with all the retirements coming up.

I think the most likely pilot shortage scenario is not necessarily a lack of applicants, but a lack of training ability with the enormous amount of movement and retirements. In fact, we've already seen it at United last summer, and DL is having huge gaps in the training profiles simply for lack of sim availability... and this is mostly due to growth.
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mastermags said:
Major airlines are hiring at an unprecedented rate. This could have positive and negative effects. For example, if the legacies continue to hire 1000+ a year and then something unforeseen happens and major capacity has to be cut it could really put a slow down on hiring for a long, long time, even with all the retirements coming up.

I think the most likely pilot shortage scenario is not necessarily a lack of applicants, but a lack of training ability with the enormous amount of movement and retirements. In fact, we've already seen it at United last summer, and DL is having huge gaps in the training profiles simply for lack of sim availability... and this is mostly due to growth.
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Training is becoming a serious issue. Our VP of Flight OPS spoke at my last AQP and he said he has no idea how many of the FFD's are going to train the pilots for the airplanes they have promised to provide. He knows how many sims there are and the numbers just don't add up.
Some regionals are starting to build their own simulator training facilities, but that takes time.
Another issue is finding the experienced instructors when you have a high turn over. We now see some regional instructors with less than a year of 121 experience. Scary.
Frankly if I were JetBlue, SouthWest and the other carriers without FFD feeders I would go to the regional airlines and hire away every instructor I could get. This would cripple the legacies' feed systems and I think you would quickly see the wheels fly off.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
You're talking about the operation that wrapped (large number) of airplanes around mountainsides and got an angry, very public spanking from the National Transportation Safety Board, right? (And quite a few near-misses related to icing and loss of control on the 121 side to boot that easily could have resulted in loss of the airplane.)

Prepared for what, precisely?
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Yes, it's true they have been plagued with problems in the past. They were very frank about this in ground school. However, we have a completely new Ops Control and things have changed very much for the better. Also the NTSB rant came after the new system was in place.

I assume @ppragman was referencing low time guys not being prepared to fly in Alaska, especially Western Alaska. My short time as a Van FO has taught me a lot already.
 
Blackhawk said:
Another issue is finding the experienced instructors when you have a high turn over.
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You don't say? This has been playing out in flight schools for years. We've all seen it play out and it goes something like this:

A new customer walks in the door - "I want the highest time instructor you have to teach my kid."

"Sir, here is Mike and he has (between 300-1,500 hours).

"That's it?!? You don't have any instructors with tens of thousands of hours! Where are all the more experienced pilots?"

"Sir, they have moved on to other flying jobs. Charter, airlines, etc...."
 
CFI A&P said:
You don't say? This has been playing out in flight schools for years. We've all seen it play out and it goes something like this:

A new customer walks in the door - "I want the highest time instructor you have to teach my kid."

"Sir, here is Mike and he has (between 300-1,500 hours).

"That's it?!? You don't have any instructors with tens of thousands of hours! Where are all the more experienced pilots?"

"Sir, they have moved on to other flying jobs. Charter, airlines, etc...."
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Lousy instruction builds lousy pilots builds lousy instructors (etc.).

I actually want to instruct now, (1) to push my GA buttons again and (2) because I think it would be a fun and improving experience. (My career worked out such that I didn't "have" to.)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I actually want to instruct now, (1) to push my GA buttons again and (2) because I think it would be a fun and improving experience. (My career worked out such that I didn't "have" to.)
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I've always wondered why flight schools weren't staffed by retired corporate and airline pilots. In an ideal world, that's who would be teaching the next generation of aviators.

I just wish more of them had an interest in flying outside of work.
 
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