Are simulator portions of job interviews unfair?

Hacker15e said:
Are you for real, man? You probably didn't bust that sim ride for the reason you thought you did, so your analysis is also probably just plain wrong.
Click to expand...
I don't even know that I failed the sim portion of my Airnet interview I posted about in the OP (they never told me either way). I didn't make this thread to be about my Airnet interview, I just used it as a starting point for the discussion of sim portions in interviews being unfair.

This whole thread, people have been telling you that, no, it isn't that one switch location, or that one checklist item, or that one power setting that is the magic key to passing a sim check.
Click to expand...

But taking a long time to find a switch can lead to being behind the airplane, which can snowball into much worse things. Accidents are always chains of events that can start with something innocuous like taking a long time to find a switch.

People -- some of whom have actually given simulator checks -- are telling you that they are looking at a pilot's overall, basic airmanship knowing fully well it is an airplane you've probably never flown before.
Click to expand...
Isn't that what a FAA certificate is for? Have you ever met a certificated pilot (with hours to get an interview) who has no basic airmanship skills?


they expect to see you stumble and maybe even fall...but they're looking for you to use good, basic airmanship (at the experience level that it is being tested) and demonstrate that you get back up and learn and adapt to the situation. Having an "instructor" toss you bits of situational awareness would entirely defeat the purpose.
Click to expand...
What about the guy that had the good fortune of having recent experience in the sim? What if I had 200 recent hours of Frasca time during my Airnet interview? I wouldn't have gotten behind the airplane, and the interviewer would not have been able to see how I act under stress. Does that mean I fail the interview? Under that scenario should I pretend I am behind the airplane by purposfully flying all over the place and acting like I can't find any of the switches?

They want to see you you apply your skills and handle the airmanship problem you are presented with all alone.
Click to expand...
A large part of preparing to fly alone is making sure I'm familiar enough with the airplane to complete the flight safely. I never have, and never will launch off into hard IMC solo for my first flight in an airframe.

If your entire train wrecked because you didn't know "the power setting", and didn't exercise the airmanship to adapt to what resulted from you not having that one bit of info you wished you had, that is telling the interviewer something important about you and your airmanship.
Click to expand...
First off, my train did not wrecked. I just flew the approach in a manner that is not indicitive of how I normally fly approaches. In an airplane I'm familiar with, I never bust altitude, I never lose heading, and I never fumble checklists.

All it says is that I'm (logically) not willing to spend my own money to prepare for a interview when I might not get the job. The problem is that you have to pay hard earned money in order to get familiar with any sim. If every company that made candidates do a sim evaluation offered, say, 5 free hours of preperation then it would be less unfair. Its not my job to train myself to do the job, it is that of the company that hires that has that responsibility. Didn't "pay for training" used to be something this forum frowned upon?
 
Hacker15e said:
Oooooooohhhhhh, you should have just told us right in the beginning that you were trolling.

It would have saved us all the misunderstanding.
Click to expand...
I don't fumble in a way that causes the "snowball effect" under normal conditions. My eyes may skip over a checklist item or something, but I'll notice the error and correct immediately. Maybe "fumbling" is the wrong word.
 
nbv4 said:
I don't fumble in a way that causes the "snowball effect" under normal conditions. My eyes may skip over a checklist item or something, but I'll notice the error and correct immediately. Maybe "fumbling" is the wrong word.
Click to expand...
buttfumble-2.gif
 
My newest flying partner's SIMmate, whom had thousands of glorious 121 hours, couldn't fly a Lear 45 sim without crashing. Yes. There are people out there who shouldn't be in charge of anything more complicated than a can opener.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ok, so, what are you looking to gain from our community with this thread? Whether or not we think the sim portion of the Airnet ride in 2007 is unfair is immaterial, almost a decade later.
 
Sorry, I only made it to page three before I gave up. Maybe someone already said this, maybe not.

Ever wonder why Delta doesn't and never did a sim eval? Because, as explained to me, "We already know that ou can fly an airplane. You wouldn't be here if you couldn't."

What they do test however, is how you handle stressful situations and recover from failure. That is what the computer testing and psych interview is all about. The psychologist is trying to push buttons, to see how you respond to adversarial confrontations. The light pen test is designed to force you to fail, and how fast you can recover from that failure.

Just like what the old time sim Evals were designed to do. Some people just haven't figured that out yet.
 
Cptnchia said:
Sorry, I only made it to page three before I gave up. Maybe someone already said this, maybe not.

Ever wonder why Delta doesn't and never did a sim eval? Because, as explained to me, "We already know that ou can fly an airplane. You wouldn't be here if you couldn't."

What they do test however, is how you handle stressful situations and recover from failure. That is what the computer testing and psych interview is all about. The psychologist is trying to push buttons, to see how you respond to adversarial confrontations. The light pen test is designed to force you to fail, and how fast you can recover from that failure.

Just like what the old time sim Evals were designed to do. Some people just haven't figured that out yet.
Click to expand...

Right. I guess in that respect, if someone got behind/lost control of the aircraft because you were focused on searching for the landing lights switch, that answers a lot more questions than "does he/she know how to fly"
 
milleR said:
Hey, it was a Frasca. That stuff is serious business mmmkay? It was straight from the sim to the dark night of ootsk single pilot hell. Can't take that lightly ya know.

Edit: @mikecweb your sim interview got you that left chair in the Lear, no?
Click to expand...
Yea 18 months and 3 days later.
 
nbv4 said:
I've only ever had to do one job interview where I had to demonstrate my flying skills in a simulator. It was for a job at Airnet that I interviewed for in 2007 (right before they started layoffs)

They put me in a Frasca simulator, which I had never flown before, and wanted me to take off, do some pattern work, and then land after doing an instrument approach.

When I'm flying in real life, I'm familiar with the plane. I know the V speeds. I'm familiar with the layout of the instrument panel. I'm familiar with the feel of how the plane responds to pitch and power.In an airplane I've never flown before, all of this is unknown to me.

After I took off, I pulled out the checklist and attempted to do the "after take off" items. The checklist I had never seen before, so I had to spent a bit of time just finding the items. Once I found the items, one of them was "turn off landing light". It took me 30 seconds or so to even find the landing light switch. I even asked the interviewer "Where is the landing light switch?". He gave me no answer. In real life if you're flying a plane that you are not familiar with, there is always at least an instructor that can answer questions you will obviously have.

At one point in the interview I had to slow the plane down for the instrument approach. I had no idea what power setting was needed, so I asked the interviewer. He did not say a word. In hindsight, I should have gotten up and walked out at that point. They were evaluating how I fly when I'm put in a plane I'm completely unfamiliar with, not my actual pilot skills.

I don't feel like my performance in that situation reflects my actual abilities. Does anyone else feel the same about simulator portion of job interviews?
Click to expand...
Not all people should be pilots. Given the nature of the flying at Airnet he probably saved your life. You should send him a fruit basket rather than bitching about it 9 years later.
 
I've yet to see a landing light left on crash an airplane.
Messing around with things like landing light switches and not task prioritizing certainly has though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bp
nbv4 said:
I don't even know that I failed the sim portion of my Airnet interview I posted about in the OP (they never told me either way). I didn't make this thread to be about my Airnet interview, I just used it as a starting point for the discussion of sim portions in interviews being unfair.



But taking a long time to find a switch can lead to being behind the airplane, which can snowball into much worse things. Accidents are always chains of events that can start with something innocuous like taking a long time to find a switch.

Isn't that what a FAA certificate is for? Have you ever met a certificated pilot (with hours to get an interview) who has no basic airmanship skills?



What about the guy that had the good fortune of having recent experience in the sim? What if I had 200 recent hours of Frasca time during my Airnet interview? I wouldn't have gotten behind the airplane, and the interviewer would not have been able to see how I act under stress. Does that mean I fail the interview? Under that scenario should I pretend I am behind the airplane by purposfully flying all over the place and acting like I can't find any of the switches?

A large part of preparing to fly alone is making sure I'm familiar enough with the airplane to complete the flight safely. I never have, and never will launch off into hard IMC solo for my first flight in an airframe.


First off, my train did not wrecked. I just flew the approach in a manner that is not indicitive of how I normally fly approaches. In an airplane I'm familiar with, I never bust altitude, I never lose heading, and I never fumble checklists.

All it says is that I'm (logically) not willing to spend my own money to prepare for a interview when I might not get the job. The problem is that you have to pay hard earned money in order to get familiar with any sim. If every company that made candidates do a sim evaluation offered, say, 5 free hours of preperation then it would be less unfair. Its not my job to train myself to do the job, it is that of the company that hires that has that responsibility. Didn't "pay for training" used to be something this forum frowned upon?
Click to expand...

I don't know you, and more than likely the interviewer doesn't either. You very well may be a great pilot, in fact you could be the "Ace of the Base" to make Bob Hoover jealous...or more than likely not. What I can tell you, however, from reading this thread and your responses within, is that I sure as hell hope you never end up as an FO I'm flying with. Your attitude tells me all I need to know. Here's a hint, and this is free interview prep right here, it's not good. Perhaps it's the interwebz and you're coming across differently than you would in person. But, I'm seeeing a whole bunch of "I'm awesome, not my fault" coming out of you instead of "This is what I learned from these experiences" and that is not the way to impress an interviewer.

Good luck!
 
Cruise said:
I don't know you, and more than likely the interviewer doesn't either. You very well may be a great pilot, in fact you could be the "Ace of the Base" to make Bob Hoover jealous...or more than likely not. What I can tell you, however, from reading this thread and your responses within, is that I sure as hell hope you never end up as an FO I'm flying with. Your attitude tells me all I need to know. Here's a hint, and this is free interview prep right here, it's not good. Perhaps it's the interwebz and you're coming across differently than you would in person. But, I'm seeeing a whole bunch of "I'm awesome, not my fault" coming out of you instead of "This is what I learned from these experiences" and that is not the way to impress an interviewer.

Good luck!
Click to expand...
Yeah.

Stay outta my flight deck, please.
 
nbv4 said:
But taking a long time to find a switch can lead to being behind the airplane, which can snowball into much worse things. Accidents are always chains of events that can start with something innocuous like taking a long time to find a switch.
Click to expand...

No it really can't snowball.... Not if you apply "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate." It's not "Find a switch, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" Last I checked. Fly the plane first. Above all else. It's very unbecoming of a professional pilot to complain about a simulator interview and not finding a simple switch. Sure it may take a little time. Aviate Navigate Communicate. Once those things are done, and you're in straight and level flight, knock out that checklist while bouncing back between aviating and accomplishing the checklist. That's just good airmanship, which is fundamentally what they're testing you on...


nbv4 said:
What about the guy that had the good fortune of having recent experience in the sim? What if I had 200 recent hours of Frasca time during my Airnet interview? I wouldn't have gotten behind the airplane, and the interviewer would not have been able to see how I act under stress. Does that mean I fail the interview? Under that scenario should I pretend I am behind the airplane by purposfully flying all over the place and acting like I can't find any of the switches?
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous. If someone has a lot of experience in the sim, then just do well. No need to screw up just because you're good at something. Always do your best. If that means the sim interview is easier for them then so be it. I've done 3 sim interviews. All on sims and instrumentation I was very familiar with. In two of the interviews, profiles and calls outs to memorize were given to study beforehand. I did well on all of them. With the pressure of it being an interview was enough to cause me to make one or two small mistakes that could've been big if I mishandled it. So they saw me under pressure and how I handled it. Had I not made any mistakes, obviously that would be ideal, but you don't get to choose when you have an almost perfect flight let alone if that's going to be on your job interview. Same mentality applies to flying the line. It can be the most perfect day, on an easy route on a plane you have over 1,000 hours in with your favorite captain. That doesn't mean that you won't make a mistake nor be a perfect flight. For that reason your head needs to be in the game 110% every single flight. Not one flight is ever less important than any other flight. Not one flight is your certificate any less on the line than any other flight.

That's my take on it. If you're a professional pilot there is a level of skill, demeanor and decorum required for this job. A sim interview is one other way to see if you have those things. PERIOD.
 
nbv4 said:
All it says is that I'm (logically) not willing to spend my own money to prepare for a interview when I might not get the job.
Click to expand...
NEWSFLASH: if you want to get a job you need to be prepared to spend money to qualify for the job.

If you're not willing to spend money on your career, and you really expect someone else to foot the bill, you are, well, living in fantasy land. It's time to join the realm of the rational world.

You came here to validate your opinion about the fairness of sim evals. You have not received the validation you sought, and yet you doggedly defend your position. Time to wise up and recalibrate instead of continuing to prove that you're wildly out of touch.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top