Approach Profiles - Archer

[cool92092]

Fellow Archer Instructors,
I'm starting to teach IFR in an archer II and I'd like to standardize so that I'll teach everyone the same way.

My questions -
1. What flap setting do you use @ the the FAF? (Presicion vs. Non?)
2. Do you teach to add flaps when descending from MDA or going visual at DH?

The latter is not something I'm too keen on but I'm curious to hear other viewpoints and maybe give my student a better experience.

Thanks for the input.

 

[tgrayson]

Do you teach to add flaps when descending from MDA or going visual at DH?

I'd say flaps are pointless in the Archer. I only add them in a C172R because it's hard to maintain 90 knots in a NP descent without a little extra drag.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

It's a matter of preference.

Mine is that I don't teach approach flaps in 172s and PA-28s. 90 kts is a pretty standard instrument approach speed and can be done with about 1900 rpm for a precision appraoch and 1500 for a non-pecision, speeds and power settings that hardly require flaps.

 

[Hubbs]

In the Cherokee 180, I was taught to use 1 notch 1 mile before the FAF and then 2 notches from FAF inbound, maintain 90kts the whole way down. Third notch was added (if necessary) once going visual.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

In the Cherokee 180, I was taught to use 1 notch 1 mile before the FAF and then 2 notches from FAF inbound, maintain 90kts the whole way down. Third notch was added (if necessary) once going visual.

Oh wow that sounds like quite a bit of flap! The only time I used flaps was flying a D95A and an F33A. All other light singles I've flown it was just a little fast to use flaps and was not needed.

 

[tgrayson]

In the Cherokee 180, I was taught to use 1 notch 1 mile before the FAF and then 2 notches from FAF inbound, maintain 90kts the whole way down. Third notch was added (if necessary) once going visual.

Why make something needlessly complicated?

 

[Hubbs]

Why make something needlessly complicated?

To be honest I am not entirely sure, and I never felt the need to question my CFII about it as it seemed to work well. The only reason I can think of is that it makes for a gradual transition from no flaps to full rather than applying full flaps in one go at the DA. I'll ask him when I next see him, as I too would be interested to know.

 

[minitour]

My questions -
1. What flap setting do you use @ the the FAF? (Presicion vs. Non?)
2. Do you teach to add flaps when descending from MDA or going visual at DH?

For your first question, I like to teach and fly "flaps approach" for the final approach segment (one notch in your case). To me, it seems to stabilize things up just a bit and assists with the descent.

Now, for me I also like to teach and prefer to fly a planned descent profile on NPA's rather than "dive and drive" like so many people like to teach and fly. That is to say, if I have 800' to lose from the FAF to MDA and FAF to MAP is 4 miles, I'll just do the math and figure out what my descent rate needs to be. For 90 knots, that would be roughly 300fpm.
(800'/4miles = 200ft/mile * 1.5 miles/min = 300fpm).

Unless there's a step down fix I need to hit, I'll step that up to 500fpm so I can be at MDA a short time prior to the MAP to give me time to look around. This is especially so if I'm circling or it's dark out. I don't really enjoy plummeting towards the Earth at 1000fpm in the clouds, in the dark unless my ground speed and the descent angle requires it...in which case, I've already briefed it.

Now, for your second question. As for final flaps, I'd like to see you turned final (if circling) and/or landing assured before adding more flaps in something light like a 172 or Archer. This way you know that the addition of drag isn't going to make you come up short if/when the engine quits.

I think DH might be a little late to be adding flaps if you're doing 120 knots, but doing 90 knots, you've still got 200 feet to go in the descent and that means ~24 seconds from DH to touchdown so I don't think there's a real problem unless you end up ballooning back into the soup. BTDT

Those planes will land just fine with 10 degrees of flaps, so you may want to consider adding some landing distance (And make it ridiculous too! Say for a flaps 10 landing you add 75% on to your landing distance numbers. It shouldn't be even close to that, so you should be fine.) and just landing with the flaps left at the approach setting.

-mini

 

[jhugz]

Throw different profiles at the student and let him choose the one that works best for him/her (the one that sticks) and just role with it. There are 10 different ways to teach 1 item and no way is really best except for the one that works the best for the student.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Cross the marker at full power and up in the yellow arc, then pull power to 1500 and add flaps as the speed bleeds off, arriving at the DH on speed in configuration.



Joking of course, though I've done it a few times myself when practicing for proficiency.

 

[minitour]

Cross the marker at full power and up in the yellow arc, then pull power to 1500 and add flaps as the speed bleeds off, arriving at the DH on speed in configuration.

Sounds like a standard freight pilot ILS profile. :yup:

-mini

 

[Roger, Roger]

Sounds like a standard freight pilot ILS profile. :yup:

-mini

I will neither confirm nor deny that that is what I was aiming for.

 

[Soku39]

Cross the marker at full power and up in the yellow arc, then pull power to 1500 and add flaps as the speed bleeds off, arriving at the DH on speed in configuration.

Technically the only time you could legally do this would be a navaid on the field or a GPS approach. The only reason I say this is due to the need a constant ground speed to get the time right. I have gone missed at the time expiration, while operating in actual. (flight school environment, not freight)

 

[Roger, Roger]

Or when you have DME available, or GPS substitute for DME available, or on an ILS where your MAP is the DA...

 

[Soku39]

Ya actually thinking about it there are allot of ways around the time, guess I should think outside the box more.

 

[cool92092]

Thanks for all the replies guys, Its really a great thing to have this community as a resource. I'm going to take the majority opinion and roll with it because I tried it out this weekend and it transferred over easily to the student. One notch of flaps and 90kts is a generally accepted setting.

I agree that the student should develop his own methods and I always show them a couple of variations but I like to keep a standard for teaching all of my students while they are in my shop. thanks again for the detailed replies.

 

[Douglas]

I typically just drop it like it is hot....
oh wait.