Approach Clearance?

This is interesting, and apparently new from when I was last discussing this as a CFI many moons ago.
It is. I forget what years, but less than "many moons" ago, the FAA did an AIM rewrite to try to coordinate the PT mandatory rule with actual practice. It wasn't easy. The current version is the second or third rewrite.
 
The thing of note is that you can no longer be cleared on a heading to join an RNAV approach, anywhere in side the initial fix. You have to be cleared to an actual fix.
I've never seen that. The quote from the AIM above does not say that.

Do you have a reference that says ATC cannot issue normal vectors to the FAC (using the approach gate, just like any other approach) on an RNAV approach?
 
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I've never seen that. The quote from the AIM above does not say that.

Do you have a reference that says ATC cannot issue normal vectors to the FAC (using the approach gate, just like any other approach) on an RNAV approach?

This is contained in FAA 7110.65, paragraph 4-8-1h3. ATC can vector the aircraft to a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF, but then the intercept angle falls to 30° or less.

3. Established on a heading or course direct to a fix between the IF and FAF, at an intercept angle not greater than 30 degrees, and assigned an altitude in
accordance with b2.

But this only works if there's a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF. Otherwise, the IAF/IF is the last point at which the aircraft can join the approach. Under no circumstance is the controller authorized to vector to intercept the inbound course alone, and never has been as far as I know. With RNAV approaches it's all about the fixes, not the course.
 
This is contained in FAA 7110.65, paragraph 4-8-1h3. ATC can vector the aircraft to a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF, but then the intercept angle falls to 30° or less.

3. Established on a heading or course direct to a fix between the IF and FAF, at an intercept angle not greater than 30 degrees, and assigned an altitude in
accordance with b2.

But this only works if there's a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF. Otherwise, the IAF/IF is the last point at which the aircraft can join the approach. Under no circumstance is the controller authorized to vector to intercept the inbound course alone, and never has been as far as I know. With RNAV approaches it's all about the fixes, not the course.

Huh. I can't count how many times I've been vectored on to a FAC on an RNAV approach.
 
This is contained in FAA 7110.65, paragraph 4-8-1h3. ATC can vector the aircraft to a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF, but then the intercept angle falls to 30° or less.

3. Established on a heading or course direct to a fix between the IF and FAF, at an intercept angle not greater than 30 degrees, and assigned an altitude in
accordance with b2.

But this only works if there's a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF. Otherwise, the IAF/IF is the last point at which the aircraft can join the approach. Under no circumstance is the controller authorized to vector to intercept the inbound course alone, and never has been as far as I know. With RNAV approaches it's all about the fixes, not the course.
Really? Vectors to final on an ILS are and have always been improper? Notice the quoted paragraphs apply to conventional approaches as well as RNAV approaches. The paragraph you quoted begins with:

For RNAV-equipped aircraft operating on unpublished routes, issue approach clearance for conventional or RNAV SIAP only after the aircraft is:

And the AIM paragraph says:
In addition to the above, RNAV aircraft may be issued a clearance direct to the IAF/IF at intercept angles not greater than 90 degrees for both conventional and RNAV instrument approaches.

OTOH, 5-9-1 of the ATC Handbook specifically contemplates vectors to final on an RNAV approach:
5-9-1. VECTORS TO FINAL APPROACH COURSE Except as provided in para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, vector arriving aircraft to intercept the final approach course:
a. At least 2 miles outside the approach gate unless one of the following exists:
1. When the reported ceiling is at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and the visibility is at least 3 miles (report may be a PIREP if no weather is reported for the airport), aircraft may be vectored to intercept the final approach course closer than 2 miles outside the approach gate but no closer than the approach gate.
2. If specifically requested by the pilot, aircraft may be vectored to intercept the final approach course inside the approach gate but no closer than the final approach fix.
EXCEPTION. Conditions 1 and 2 above do not apply to RNAV aircraft being vectored for a GPS or RNAV approach.

So, when vectoring for the final approach with RNAV, the 2 mile outside the approach gate requirement is there, but not the two exceptions.

As I read it, RNAV aircraft give ATC an additional option for RNAV equipped aircraft; it does not remove other proper options.

Or are you saying there is something else that allows Orlando Approach to vector to final on the KORL ILS or LOC 25 but does not allow them to do it on the virtually identical RNAV(GPS) 25? Or, ATC can give vectors to final on the ILS but can't if the aircraft is equipped with RNAV? It's certainly possible, although I have received vectors to final on GPS approaches, but if there is such a thing, what is it? The paragraphs so far referred to don't say that.

What ATC is and has been precluded from is vectoring an aircraft to intercept the inbound course inside the FAF(or GSI) or within a certain distance outside. All both the ATC Handbook and the AIM paragraph quoted say ATC is allowed to, in addition, give a direct-to-a fix between the IF and the FAF, which are, of course outside the FAF.
 
Really? Vectors to final on an ILS are and have always been improper? Notice the quoted paragraphs apply to conventional approaches as well as RNAV approaches.

This discussion is on RNAV approaches. I even said that in my comment above: "With RNAV approaches it's all about the fixes, not the course."

Of course you can vector in a inbound course on an ILS, LOC, or VOR/TACAN approach, but that wasn't the question. As for the rest of your comment, I'll do some more research. You may have me there.
 
This discussion is on RNAV approaches. I even said that in my comment above: "With RNAV approaches it's all about the fixes, not the course."

Of course you can vector in a inbound course on an ILS, LOC, or VOR/TACAN approach, but that wasn't the question. As for the rest of your comment, I'll do some more research. You may have me there.
That's OK. I know what you said in your comment. I'm just pointing out that the source you referred to for support says it applies to both RNAV and conventional approaches.
 
Who is confused?

The pilots flying the approach, or the controller's intention of what he wanted. Take your pick. There should be no confusion between what an ATC controller wants and expects you to do, and what you are about to fly (PT or straight in). So just query and be safe.
 
This is contained in FAA 7110.65, paragraph 4-8-1h3. ATC can vector the aircraft to a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF, but then the intercept angle falls to 30° or less.

3. Established on a heading or course direct to a fix between the IF and FAF, at an intercept angle not greater than 30 degrees, and assigned an altitude in
accordance with b2.

But this only works if there's a fix between the IAF/IF and the FAF. Otherwise, the IAF/IF is the last point at which the aircraft can join the approach. Under no circumstance is the controller authorized to vector to intercept the inbound course alone, and never has been as far as I know. With RNAV approaches it's all about the fixes, not the course.

So with some people saying you're no longer on "vectors to final" when you are cleared direct for a fix, that automatically means a PT? Since that criteria was 'never' met? That doesn't sound right.
 
So with some people saying you're no longer on "vectors to final" when you are cleared direct for a fix, that automatically means a PT? Since that criteria was 'never' met? That doesn't sound right.
Are you really confused about the concept of a vector?
Just because it "sounds wrong," or you've never done it before, doesn't mean it is.
(E.G., our friend Jerry W.)

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So with some people saying you're no longer on "vectors to final" when you are cleared direct for a fix, that automatically means a PT? Since that criteria was 'never' met? That doesn't sound right.
No. It's not right. That's the point of the AIM and ATC Handbook - even assuming there is a PT depicted and no NoPT notation, ATC can clear you straight in on an instruction direct to the IF or any fix between the IF and the FAC.

In the type of scenario we are discussing, the controller probably intends for you to go straight in but you technically need to hear the words "cleared straight in." If you don't, I think it's best to clarify with a simple short transmission even if it seems obvious. Or you can guess and play the odds.
 
I've never seen that. The quote from the AIM above does not say that.

Do you have a reference that says ATC cannot issue normal vectors to the FAC (using the approach gate, just like any other approach) on an RNAV approach?

I just did some looking. It was contained in an opspec, so specific to us only. Nevermind.
 
If it was me, I would get configured before MEGPE, and descend to 1,800 after MEGPE once established on the inbound. Today's FMS's will have you established at MEGPE anyway. Just my $.02......
 
No. It's not right. That's the point of the AIM and ATC Handbook - even assuming there is a PT depicted and no NoPT notation, ATC can clear you straight in on an instruction direct to the IF or any fix between the IF and the FAC.

In the type of scenario we are discussing, the controller probably intends for you to go straight in but you technically need to hear the words "cleared straight in." If you don't, I think it's best to clarify with a simple short transmission even if it seems obvious. Or you can guess and play the odds.
At this point I think I might be going insane. You don't need to hear "cleared straight in," because a direct entry accomplishes a HILPT. (As per my previous post)
 
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