Appeals court strikes down FAA drone registration

[Richman]

Well, considering the law specifically said "the FAA shall not register or otherwise regulate model aircraft" (that fit a certain criteria)" it's no wonder the court found in favor of the plaintiff.

I understand the angst, but I'd be more worried if the court found the rules OK.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Not all of them.

We've got a guy who is big into drones that has some of the higher end ones for photography/videography. His can use cell signal with a basic autonomy to make up for the latency of the signal.


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That's what I thought. I thought the whole reason they're called drones is you can just program a flight path into them and they fly it without any more user input.

 

[Lawman]

That's what I thought. I thought the whole reason they're called drones is you can just program a flight path into them and they fly it without any more user input.

He can do that too.

He's shown me programs where he can set the drone to specific patterns and altitudes and even set the payload to take shots from each location, then he just observes and monitors.

Some of the bigger systems are really not much of a departure from the same tech our military drones use, they just don't have the hardening/joe-proofing.


The other part of this equation (the crazy 1%) on drone registry is weaponization. ISIS is actively using commercial off the shelf drones in Iraq right now to target coalition troops. If these guys can build this stuff in garages, so can some crazy stateside.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I wish DJI would let you petition the NFZ's. Periodically i may want to do a roof survey "near" an airport. Call the tower " I'll be at this radial/dme at an altitude no greater than 75 feet, here's my #.

Almost always get a "no problem thanks for calling" and get approved. DJI though? NFZ!!! Fly up to one and the AC either stops, or if GPS isn't awesome sometimes just auto lands.


Oh yeah, no issue with registering. Only reason I wouldn't want it registered would be if I crashed it into something and wanted to flee...

 

[denverpilot]

Almost always get a "no problem thanks for calling" and get approved. DJI though? NFZ!!! Fly up to one and the AC either stops, or if GPS isn't awesome sometimes just auto lands.

I thought they had a mode where a commercial operator could get the NFZs turned off with appropriate paperwork? Had to prove you have a Commercial ticket I think. Don't remember.

Our airport authority did some NFZ testing with a drone around the airport. Was pretty neat. I wasn't there but saw their footage. They'd put the drone on auto hover and then push it toward the geofence and it would back up or like you said, if they kept pushing it physically (grabbing it by the legs) it would just land. Pretty interesting.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

I thought they had a mode where a commercial operator could get the NFZs turned off with appropriate paperwork? Had to prove you have a Commercial ticket I think. Don't remember.

Our airport authority did some NFZ testing with a drone around the airport. Was pretty neat. I wasn't there but saw their footage. They'd put the drone on auto hover and then push it toward the geofence and it would back up or like you said, if they kept pushing it physically (grabbing it by the legs) it would just land. Pretty interesting.

They have "warning zones" which you can turn off via request from the app, but the NFZ is a no go, can't be turned off. Last I heard people were taping aluminum to the top of the GPS antenna, and cheating it *BUT* if the gps manages to get lock while in the NFZ, the drone will initiate auto land wherever it is, and you only have very limited horizontal control.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

A D.C.-based appeals court struck down a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) rule on Friday requiring recreational drone users to register their model aircraft with the federal government, in a major win for drone hobbyists.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit sided with plaintiff John A. Taylor, a recreational drone pilot, who argued that the FAA doesn’t have the power to make him register his toy drones because Congress already said the FAA can’t regulate model aircraft.

“The FAA’s 2015 registration rule, which applies to model aircraft, directly violates that clear statutory prohibition,” the opinion said. “We therefore grant Taylor’s petition and vacate the registration rule to the extent it applies to (continued below)

http://thehill.com/policy/transport...down-federal-registration-rule-for-toy-drones

What the heck is a "model aircraft"? Every aircraft I've ever flown was a model... and a make, too. Pretty sure anyway.
It is a serious question, however. What denotes, defines and differentiates a "model" aircraft from any other aircraft flying around in airspace? A pilot? What about commercial drones? Not model aircraft? Why not? Because they are operating for hire??? This stuff has got to get sorted ... ricki tick. My vote is put the stress on "aircraft" rather than "model".

 

[av8tr1]

He can do that too.

He's shown me programs where he can set the drone to specific patterns and altitudes and even set the payload to take shots from each location, then he just observes and monitors.

Some of the bigger systems are really not much of a departure from the same tech our military drones use, they just don't have the hardening/joe-proofing.


The other part of this equation (the crazy 1%) on drone registry is weaponization. ISIS is actively using commercial off the shelf drones in Iraq right now to target coalition troops. If these guys can build this stuff in garages, so can some crazy stateside.

Yep, I build them myself. I've got the capability to run the whole thing over a cell phone signal sitting in my underwear in my office 100s of miles away from the actual quad rotor.

The largest one I built is about 4 foot square has a payload over 25lbs.

The entire rig cost me under $250 with every piece coming out of china through hobby king. All the software was open source over the internet using arduino for quad copters.

I'm designing a rig large enough to lift me. The whole thing priced out is gonna be around 2k. I

It's just a matter of time before someone builds a home made cruise missle and luanches it at something valuable. There was a guy out of new zeland a few years ago with pulse jets. I built one of his plans and didn't have the software at the time to control it. Now it's all freely available.

 

[trafficinsight]

I nearly had a midair with a "model" extra that was at least half the size of the 150 I was flying. I was at 1500 AGL and it came over the top of a loop right it front of me.

Maybe it's time the FAA regulated models. They aren't the same as they used to be either.



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[A Life Aloft]

I'm told some of the logic was this: Model trains aren't registered & licensed as trains, so why should model aircraft be registered & licensed as aircraft?

I also don't think you need the FAA to tell drone operators that they must remain clear of manned aircraft.

Even when they are told and there are clear rules, some of the operators simply don't care. We've had near misses out in Ca with drones the last 4 years with Police and Sheriff helicopters and with drones interfering/creating hazards where helicopters and tankers are making drops on wild fires to the point where the firefighting planes/choppers had to be called back to base. We've also had a few issues of them encountering commercial aircraft as well. Then we've had issues with drone operators in protected state and federal wildlife preserves and wilderness areas chasing and harassing predator birds and some mammals. We've also had a few incidents of someone using a drone to smuggle cell phones, other items and drugs into prison yards.

 

[sorrygottarunway]

Are these drone toys built with "limits"- as in, they can't ascend past a certain altitude or distance from the operator? Or do people monkey with the inner workings to bust those limits?

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Are these drone toys built with "limits"- as in, they can't ascend past a certain altitude or distance from the operator? Or do people monkey with the inner workings to bust those limits?

DJI ships theirs with a height above take off point limit, and it won't fly into NFZ's, but, the end user can disable to altitude limit by acknowledging responsibility for compliance.

You can get an altitude waiver - it's not hard. Just requires coordination with local ATC -time area and altitude. They may seem like toys, but the DJI Mavic pro ( about the size of a water bottle folded) will hit nearly 16,000 msl, hit 40mph, fly for close to 9 miles/27 minutes. It will avoid terrain and trees etc, track people and cars, can auto return and auto land. The remote in good conditions will give you nearly 4mile range with full telemetry and onboard video.

The new SUas are becoming much more capable and advanced.

 

[av8tr1]

Lots of people are building their own and never have to deal with built in restrictions.

Here is the control software I use for the actual drone.
http://ardupilot.org/copter/
http://www.arducopter.co.uk/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArduCopter

I use a program on android called Android GCS for onboard instrumentation.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.taulabs.androidgcs&hl=en
http://ardupilot.org/copter/docs/common-choosing-a-ground-station.html

Then I use Mission Planner for my ground control station.
http://ardupilot.org/planner/docs/mission-planner-overview.html

Everything you see here is open source and freely downloadable from the Internet. SInce its open source the code is readily available for modification. But why modify? There are no built in restrictions on what you can and can't do with it.

Next I source my parts from Hobby King.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multi-rotors-drones.html

For about $250 you can get a surprisingly capable quad rotor kit that comes with everything you need to start flying. Find someone like me who has the technical background to mod that $250 quad rotor and go all "tim the tool man taylor" on it. Beef up the motors and rotors to support a larger payload and presto chango you've got a poor mans cruise missile. Here are the instructions to include a 4G wireless communication system on board to really reach out and touch someone. https://wiredcraft.com/blog/drone-copter-uav-4g-network/

Go with the same software and internals on a fixed wing and you can have a larger payload that can fly for 1000s of miles using the cell phone signal while you sit in a cave somewhere and bomb your friends and neighbors for fun and profit. Or just harass the police, fire rescue, or random women sunbathing topless.

So the technology is there to do just about anything you want. However most commercial off the shelf dones are not really capable of doing a ton of damage. The largest ones out there for sale are less than 10 pounds. Most are under 5. While a direct hit to a engine intake could be an issue I think in most cases the drone is going to deflect off the aircraft or just disintegrate on impact. Most of my stuff is light weight carbon fiber. I've had a couple of spectacular crashes that ended with just pieces everywhere.

Someone determined to do damage is going to do it right and will do a lot of damage but the idiots we deal with on a daily basis just looking to see something cool holding at 1500 on the approach to JFK isn't going to be a huge threat. I've see high speed impacts from drones and it wasn't that big a deal

Here is video of (I think) a pitts hitting a large fixed wing remote controlled airplane. The pits had very minor damage. Pitts do not have the structural capacity of a 737. So the boeing will suffer even less from a small quad rotor looking to get a cool shot of airplanes on approach.


Having said all that (as a helicopter pilot) I agree that unregulated drones are a threat to commercial aviation. A determined individual attempting to bring down a large passenger jet has all the tools they need to be successful free or inexpensively over the internet. However the hobby crowd does not present the threat that we pilots claim they create, unless you fly helicopters. Then you are just F'en stupid and are going to die anyway (do I really need to put a sarcasm tag here?).

I've had a couple of close calls in my helicopter and I will tell you I was glad to be wearing my brown pants that day.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Lots of people are building their own and never have to deal with built in restrictions.

Here is the control software I use for the actual drone.
http://ardupilot.org/copter/
http://www.arducopter.co.uk/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArduCopter

I use a program on android called Android GCS for onboard instrumentation.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.taulabs.androidgcs&hl=en
http://ardupilot.org/copter/docs/common-choosing-a-ground-station.html

Then I use Mission Planner for my ground control station.
http://ardupilot.org/planner/docs/mission-planner-overview.html

Everything you see here is open source and freely downloadable from the Internet. SInce its open source the code is readily available for modification. But why modify? There are no built in restrictions on what you can and can't do with it.

Next I source my parts from Hobby King.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multi-rotors-drones.html

For about $250 you can get a surprisingly capable quad rotor kit that comes with everything you need to start flying. Find someone like me who has the technical background to mod that $250 quad rotor and go all "tim the tool man taylor" on it. Beef up the motors and rotors to support a larger payload and presto chango you've got a poor mans cruise missile. Here are the instructions to include a 4G wireless communication system on board to really reach out and touch someone. https://wiredcraft.com/blog/drone-copter-uav-4g-network/

Go with the same software and internals on a fixed wing and you can have a larger payload that can fly for 1000s of miles using the cell phone signal while you sit in a cave somewhere and bomb your friends and neighbors for fun and profit. Or just harass the police, fire rescue, or random women sunbathing topless.

So the technology is there to do just about anything you want. However most commercial off the shelf dones are not really capable of doing a ton of damage. The largest ones out there for sale are less than 10 pounds. Most are under 5. While a direct hit to a engine intake could be an issue I think in most cases the drone is going to deflect off the aircraft or just disintegrate on impact. Most of my stuff is light weight carbon fiber. I've had a couple of spectacular crashes that ended with just pieces everywhere.

Someone determined to do damage is going to do it right and will do a lot of damage but the idiots we deal with on a daily basis just looking to see something cool holding at 1500 on the approach to JFK isn't going to be a huge threat. I've see high speed impacts from drones and it wasn't that big a deal

Here is video of (I think) a pitts hitting a large fixed wing remote controlled airplane. The pits had very minor damage. Pitts do not have the structural capacity of a 737. So the boeing will suffer even less from a small quad rotor looking to get a cool shot of airplanes on approach.


Having said all that (as a helicopter pilot) I agree that unregulated drones are a threat to commercial aviation. A determined individual attempting to bring down a large passenger jet has all the tools they need to be successful free or inexpensively over the internet. However the hobby crowd does not present the threat that we pilots claim they create, unless you fly helicopters. Then you are just F'en stupid and are going to die anyway (do I really need to put a sarcasm tag here?).

I've had a couple of close calls in my helicopter and I will tell you I was glad to be wearing my brown pants that day.

It's not so much the danger of impact that scares me- but- the expense. Suck on through a motor for us, and the plane is down, then you have to fight with insurance to get it covered (if it's covered) and get it put back on.

Your lucky to come out of it with a bill for $40-50,000. If your unlucky the damage could be millions - and Joe "hobby" blow doesn't have that kinda scratch in the checking account.

On the flip side, smack into one @ 15,000ft doing well in excess of 300kts- it could very easily cause extreme damage to the plane. Aluminum cans don't hold up to much of anything at 300kts.

 

[tomokc]

Enforcement should be pushed down to local LEOs because FAA doesn't have the resources. There are already cops near airports, sporting events, large gatherings, etc., and if clearly authorized they can intervene. FAA won't grant this authority, nor will they enforce their own regs, which is why states & cities are writing their own regulations. This violates the congressional mandate for FAA to be the exclusive regulatory authority over the NAS, but if they're not policing reckless operators, somebody has to.

 

[trafficinsight]

Enforcement should be pushed down to local LEOs because FAA doesn't have the resources. There are already cops near airports, sporting events, large gatherings, etc., and if clearly authorized they can intervene. FAA won't grant this authority, nor will they enforce their own regs, which is why states & cities are writing their own regulations. This violates the congressional mandate for FAA to be the exclusive regulatory authority over the NAS, but if they're not policing reckless operators, somebody has to.

Local LEOs aren't even responding to burglaries anymore so that isn't a solution I don't think.

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[av8tr1]

It's not so much the danger of impact that scares me- but- the expense. Suck on through a motor for us, and the plane is down, then you have to fight with insurance to get it covered (if it's covered) and get it put back on.

Your lucky to come out of it with a bill for $40-50,000. If your unlucky the damage could be millions - and Joe "hobby" blow doesn't have that kinda scratch in the checking account.

On the flip side, smack into one @ 15,000ft doing well in excess of 300kts- it could very easily cause extreme damage to the plane. Aluminum cans don't hold up to much of anything at 300kts.

Don't misunderstand me. I do think it is a threat to aviation. I fly helicopters low level. One of these into my rotor system or through the windshield and it is probably good night Irene.

But I don't think the "hobby" group it is the extreme danger to safety in aviation that people are making it out to be. An impact to an airplane is absolutely could be an expensive repair if not catastrophic to the airframe depending on the situation. But as the video shows a very large "drone" MUCH larger and heavier than the standard "hobby" model had a direct impact to the pitts. And the pitts suffered very minor damage. The "hobby" group isn't the threat here. It's the ubiquitous and readily available parts and pieces that someone with an intent to do harm with has easy access to.

But I am pretty sure insurance would cover something like this. It isn't an act of God. And to my knowledge they cover bird strikes in the normal course of coverage. If they don't you need to find a new insurance provider.

 

[av8tr1]

Local LEOs aren't even responding to burglaries anymore so that isn't a solution I don't think.

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Right? We have a homeless woman who has camped out in her car right at the front of my local GA airport for weeks. The police have been called repeatedly on her but she is still there. Shes been seen doing drugs and once was apparently tweaking out on the ramp. Yet I am sure when I head down to my plane I'll see her hanging out in her car at the very front of the airport.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Don't misunderstand me. I do think it is a threat to aviation. I fly helicopters low level. One of these into my rotor system or through the windshield and it is probably good night Irene.

But I don't think the "hobby" group it is the extreme danger to safety in aviation that people are making it out to be. An impact to an airplane is absolutely could be an expensive repair if not catastrophic to the airframe depending on the situation. But as the video shows a very large "drone" MUCH larger and heavier than the standard "hobby" model had a direct impact to the pitts. And the pitts suffered very minor damage. The "hobby" group isn't the threat here. It's the ubiquitous and readily available parts and pieces that someone with an intent to do harm with has easy access to.

But I am pretty sure insurance would cover something like this. It isn't an act of God. And to my knowledge they cover bird strikes in the normal course of coverage. If they don't you need to find a new insurance provider.

Lots of policies do not cover bird strikes, and many times direct labor costs of FOD are not covered under a general hull/liability plan. Example- I didn't bring the laptop with me, so I can't quote you exact verbiage, but we're pretty much on the hook for labor and indirect costs if we eat a duck or goose on short final. Drones being a legal aircraft (even if being operated illegally) could complicate things - I wouldn't be half surprised if INS. Denied the claim due to failure to see and avoid.

 

[sorrygottarunway]

Well I'm eating my words, today in FLL there was a drone at 4300ft just 5 miles west of the airport they were warning all of us about.