Anyone Fly a C550?

R

RobertB

Well-Known Member
So I'm working this departure, off a satellite airport, today and I have a gap to put him in to get him higher. I climb him out of 6,000 for 14,000 and I notice he slows roughly 30-40 knots than the speed he was indicating at 6,000. All the winds, regardless of altitude, were out of the west by 20-40 knots. After noticing him slowing, I ask him what he speed is and he responds 195. I tell him to increase his speed to 250 and he responds "unable" he can only climb out at 195 maybe 205 in a Citation 550. Fine, I vector a few aircraft out of his way and amend his altitude to 12,000 until I can continue his climb. I've never had a jet tell me they couldn't accelerate past 195 or 205 in a Citation. I have two questions...
1) In a busy terminal environment, do you think it's worthwhile telling a controller you're going to slow your forward speed when you're given a climb? As a controller, I absolutely think he should tell me because that's vital information to whether I can even safely give him a climb, but I would like to hear what you guys think.
2) Was this guy completely full of it with his C550 performance rate? He never mentioned anything about being mechanically limited just that he climbs out at 195 to maybe 205 in a C550.

Thanks for your responses.
 
I used to fly a C550B Bravo and I remember getting somewhat acceptable climb rates at 250 indicated. But yeah, 220 was about normal unless we wanted more rate for some reason. It's been a while.

Do you recall their rate of climb? I can see this being the case out of an old II or S/II.
 
The climb schedule was something like 220 to 12000, then you'd start losing a knot per 1000 ft to keep the climb rate around 1000-1500fpm. In other words, the 550 can barely climb at 250 knots ( VMO is 260 below FL250 or something like that). Especially if it's hot or the planes heavy( or both). The 560 wasn't much better until the Encore model, which can do 250 and climb below 10. But it can't accelerate above 250 and climb like most other jets. 270 above 10000( VMO is 292) is about all you can add an Encore for and still get 1000-1500fpm. Unless it's light, then it's a straight wing rocket!

So, if he was heavy, then 200 indicated was probably the best he could do to keep climbing at a reasonable rate. Edit: As others have said, those of us flying airplanes with lackluster performance need choices. I might be able to climb better, but I can't go fast doing it. I can go fast(er), but don't expect more than 1000fpm if that.
 
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We don't call them slowtations for nothing. Don't expect any straight wing citation to do anything for you. Not the pilot's fault.
 
OP, depending on the conditions (temp, alt, payload, etc) the C550 won't be able to give you 250 in the climb AND an impressive rate of climb. This having been stated, I disagree with this:

greg1016 said:
We don't call them slowtations for nothing. Don't expect any straight wing citation to do anything for you. Not the pilot's fault.
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While the pilot didn't design the airplane, he has control of the throttle and yoke.

he responds "unable" he can only climb out at 195 maybe 205 in a Citation 550

The airplane WILL go 250; he just didn't want to sacrifice his rate of climb. There are numerous departures out there that specify "maintain 250 kts". The controllers and departure designers want you out of the area and are not concerned with how high you are as long as you can make it to a safe altitude.

Next time you have this situation, tell the pilot you need 250, if he replies "unable", tell him you need the speed over the rate of climb or HE gets the vectors! My bet is you'll see the speed you want!!
 
The slowtation can only do 250 in the descent :p

The pilot should have been able to give you better than the 195 he was, the older 550 models performance is very lackluster and was much improved in later models. I have a lot of time in a II and a Bravo, the performance in the Bravo is significantly better, going back to a II occasionally is painful now. He should have been able to give you 250, but depending on his weight and the temp the climb rate would have been that of a 172.
 
dustoff17 said:
OP, depending on the conditions (temp, alt, payload, etc) the C550 won't be able to give you 250 in the climb AND an impressive rate of climb. This having been stated, I disagree with this:



While the pilot didn't design the airplane, he has control of the throttle and yoke.

he responds "unable" he can only climb out at 195 maybe 205 in a Citation 550

The airplane WILL go 250; he just didn't want to sacrifice his rate of climb. There are numerous departures out there that specify "maintain 250 kts". The controllers and departure designers want you out of the area and are not concerned with how high you are as long as you can make it to a safe altitude.

Next time you have this situation, tell the pilot you need 250, if he replies "unable", tell him you need the speed over the rate of climb or HE gets the vectors! My bet is you'll see the speed you want!!
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My point is, as a controller, I am not counting on a straight winged citation to do anything for me, and I plan it that way.
 
greg1016 said:
My point is, as a controller, I am not counting on the PILOT of a straight winged citation to do anything for me, and I plan it that way.
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Fixed it to better reflect what the OP was actually dealing with in this situation............

Solution: stop his climb and give HIM the vectors!
 
Thankfully it has been a long time since I flew a 550 but the OPs post seems to accurately bring back some old memories I was trying to forget. Thanks OBAMA!


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This could have been me the other day. If the departure procedure doesn't say 250kts I don't think you should assume anything regarding 500/550/S550 speed/climb performance. I also disagree with the statement that they would rather take speed over climb rate w/ a vector. I'd almost always rather climb when I have to choose in the 550.

The comment about the 560's is also wrong; the straight V and Ultra both climb well at 250kts. Totally different animal than the 550/S550.


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AviatorGator said:
This could have been me the other day. If the departure procedure doesn't say 250kts I don't think you should assume anything regarding 500/550/S550 speed/climb performance. I also disagree with the statement that they would rather take speed over climb rate w/ a vector. I'd almost always rather climb when I have to choose in the 550.

The comment about the 560's is also wrong; the straight V and Ultra both climb well at 250kts. Totally different animal than the 550/S550.


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The 135 I flew for had 550s and 560s. II's with the Branson mod, two early Ultras and an Encore. I do remember the 560 being better than the 550, and would do 250 in the climb, but it still wasn't nearly as strong as the Encore. Those PW535 on the Encore really woke that airframe up.
 
AviatorGator said:
This could have been me the other day. If the departure procedure doesn't say 250kts I don't think you should assume anything regarding 500/550/S550 speed/climb performance. I also disagree with the statement that they would rather take speed over climb rate w/ a vector. I'd almost always rather climb when I have to choose in the 550.

The comment about the 560's is also wrong; the straight V and Ultra both climb well at 250kts. Totally different animal than the 550/S550.


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Hope you didn't infer this from MY post. I didn't state that the pilot would rather do this.
What I am stating is that it's BS for the pilot to say "unable" when clearly the plane is capable of 250kts. What I am stating is that IF the pilot WON'T give ATC the airspeed, then ATC should give HIM a lower altitude and the vector(s)!
 
I fly a Bravo. I'm speed restricted to 260 below 8000 and 275 above that. That's it. That's all she's got. I suppose I could give you a good climb rate at 250, but I typically climb at 200-225. I would have accepted 250, however, even 100 to TBO and a dog in the climb I could still give you the speed and a decent rate to 15k.
 
C56X's seem to either go fast or climb fast, but not both. At least not without some prompting. I've been bitten enough times where I find it safer to expect a slowtation to not give you what you need when you need it.
 
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