Anyone else hear about this?

Tired

New Member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Go to jetcareers.com (this is a VERY widely read website for potential students to get unbiased information on flight training). In the left margin, select the "main" menu and go to "discussion groups". There's a section on flight training with all the major flight schools listed. Go to the section on Pan Am and take a read. You aren't going to like it.

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Um, this site neither unbiased or widely read. Most students, Pan Am or otherwise haven't heard of it or don't read it.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Specifically, go to the thread, "Anyone else hear about this?" If you can read that without taking action you deserve to go out of business.

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If I was a CEO I would just ignore a preachy half-assed note written by someone who sounds like they are fourteen years old. If you want to make an impression on someone you should improve your writing skills.
 

turtle

New Member
Tired,

You say that my note was "whiny" and sounded like it was written by a 14-year-old. Why don't you be a little more specific? Put your money where your mouth is and show me where there were grammatical errors, typos, etc.

You work for Pan Am and you're trying to defend your school's reputation - nothing wrong with that. It's the way you go about it that's the problem. You personally insult anyone who has anything negative to say about Pan Am. If you ask me, THAT is the behavior of a 14-year-old. Why don't you act like an adult and keep your comments professional? Your remarks actually did more to prove my point about Pan Am than MY OWN post did (thanks for the "help")!

You seem very convinced that there's just a few students who are dissatisfied with Pan Am and that the school is being unjustly criticized. I was there for 18 months and by the time I got my CFI certificate I was the ONLY one left out of the group of us that started. The other 9 people left because they were unhappy at Pan Am. I know. I talked with them. Now that I am also gone that means that EVERY person in my class left Pan Am because of the way they were treated. Doesn't sound like a minority to me.

And since you're so anxious to defend your school's good name there's a few more things I'd appreciate your comments on:

1. The subject of this thread for starters. It sounds like one of the better students at your Ft. Pierce campus got disenrolled simply because he asked the Center Director a question. Did he?
2. I left Pan Am because I was told I had to get my MEI or I was fired. It's kind of funny that during this timeframe I heard the MEI's constantly complaining about how few students they had. That doesn't sound like you have a shortage of MEI's does it? Keep in mind, I'm not talking about one or two of them complaining - they were ALL complaining. For God's sake, there were MEI's that didn't have ANY multi students at all - I know these people, I talked with them face to face, and I can guarantee you that what I'm saying is true. That being the case, what is the reasoning behind Pan Am's "get your MEI or you're fired" policy? I just KNOW it's not the extra money Pan Am would get by blackmailing their instructors. Your specific comments are welcome.
3. While we're on the "do it or you're fired" subject, how about the current word from Mt. Olympus: All CFI's now have to go through the ACE program or .... you guessed it .... "YOU'RE FIRED"; (does anyone besides me sense a pattern developing???). I got this info from two of the most senior instructors at Ft. Pierce so I'm willing to bet it's true. I won't argue the point that ACE will make you a better pilot, but to insinuate that someone isn't an acceptable instructor until they know how to fly a Regional Jet seems to be stretching things a bit. Again, I know Pan Am isn't after those $$$$ in your students' accounts.
4. At one point ALL the JAA students got together and just about walked out because of the condition of their airplanes (the JAA guys were flying the older Warriors, not the Archers) and a few other issues that I can't recall. The point is, Pan Am pissed off EVERY ONE of them (not the vocal minority) to the point where they were ready to leave.
5. Another true story. During the days when Pan Am couldn't create a firm schedule to save its life, the guys who were doing the route flying had their days off changed on an almost weekly basis. One of the guys put up a $500 deposit on a dive trip he scheduled on his days off. Well, as luck would have it, his days off were changed two days before the trip. When he brought the issue up with the Director of Training do you know what his response was? "Tough s**t". There were a dozen witnesses to this event. How many respectable businesses do you know of where management speaks to customers in such a degrading manner? Now before you give me the old line, "He was here for flight training, he shouldn't be wasting time doing other things", that is NOT my point. The issue is the way Pan Am treats their students and employees.

Tired, if I were you, I'd be spending my time fixing the problems with my flight school instead of slinging cheap insults. What do you think?
 

Tired

New Member
Ok, lets put that 2300 users in perspective. There are around 625,000 pilots in America. Assuming all users of this website hold certificates then that is only .4% of all pilots are members here. How about the percentage of users vs. student starts? Around 60,000 student pilots start out each year, assuming all users were just starting their flight training then this site would only be reaching 4% of that group. And don’t forget that only .2% of the US population are pilots. Moreover, consider Pareto's Principle. More likely then not twenty percent of the total amount of users are doing eighty percent of the posting/reading on this site.

As far as your writing, most executives don’t like being bluntly told how to run their business by someone who basically threatens to call them unworthy of their position. It doesn’t help that the letter makes you sound like a little whiny kid. Say your message clearly and concisely without resorting to threats or using the word “stunk”.
 

turtle

New Member
Tired,

I modified my original response to you and our posts seem to have "crossed in the mail".

You do have a point with the numbers. It seems that jetcareers may not be as widely read as I first thought.

As far as my writing goes, I tried for almost a year to be a little more tactful in addressing the problems at the school. When tact didn't work I become blunt. But I'm a little confused. On the one hand you tell me I'm too blunt - then you say that I should have stated my point, "clearly and concisely". You seem to be the self-proclaimed writing expert but I thought "blunt" and "concise" meant pretty much the same thing.

As far as "whining" goes, whining is complaining about simple, trivial issues. First of all, in my e-mail I didn't do any specific complaining. I simply said I didn't like the management and invited them to read the comments regarding Pan Am posted at this website. I don't see anything particularly "whiny" about that. Secondly, my issues regarding Pan Am were hardly trivial. I left because I was basically extorted ("get your MEI or we're going to fire you"). Most of the other issues I'm reading about here don't sound like whining either.

And I didn't threaten anyone. I simply stated my opinion that anyone who treats their customers and employees the way Pan Am does deserves to go out of business.

That being said, you can comment on the revised post.

Happy Thanksgiving!!
 

flyinfool

New Member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Is there ANYONE at ANY flight school that's happy?

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Yes, there are a lot of us that are completely satisfied with our choices and would have no problem recommending them to others. (Granted they're not Pan Am or Westwind)

I have a friend at Pan Am Phx that claims they pushed him into 92 hours before his PPL checkride, does this happen often?
 

turtle

New Member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Yes, there are a lot of us that are completely satisfied with our choices and would have no problem recommending them to others.

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What school do you go to? Occasionally someone asks me to recommend a good flight school and it's becoming increasingly difficult to do this.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I have a friend at Pan Am Phx that claims they pushed him into 92 hours before his PPL checkride, does this happen often?

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I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "pushed him" into 92 hours before his PPL checkride. When I was there I didn't have any complaints about the instruction. I never heard of anyone being deliberately held back so they could be "milked" for more flight time.
 

flyinfool

New Member
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
What school do you go to? Occasionally someone asks me to recommend a good flight school and it's becoming increasingly difficult to do this.

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I was a student of, and am an instructor for ATP. I'm not here to tout one school over another, I just personally know a lot of people that have been extremely satisfied with the same choice I made. I also know a handful of people that are not as happy with that choice. Some programs aren't for everyone, but go and read the ATP threads and you will notice the difference in attitude.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I never heard of anyone being deliberately held back so they could be "milked" for more flight time.

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That's just what I heard. My friend is still there at Pan Am and is making due, but I have heard about these kinds of practices (intentionally failing 141 stage checks) at other large phx flight schools. It makes me really happy that I decided not to follow a 141 circiculum. It seems to me that the 141 schools are the ones that are robbing people blind.

My opinion, that's all it is.
 
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