Jon Gandy
Well-Known Member
You can thank MELs for that.
Any info on Boutique air?
- Thread starter Jon Gandy
- Start date
Jon Gandy
Well-Known Member
Rental PC-12s and Caravans? Never heard of such a thing. Unless we are talking charter brokering.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
He means Leases. There are only a few of these available outside of private or corporate owners. So the same airplanes are available for lease,
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Yes many of these revolving door 135 EAS operators do not own their aircraft, so aircraft come off lease at say pacific wings and then go to Seaport then boutique.
hook_dupin
Well-Known Member
Further, there's really only a couple of these leasing outfits. There isn't exactly "downward price pressure" on these leases. I saw a proposal once that was $12K/mo for a Caravan that was a fixed monthly and separate from an engine reserves payment.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I don't have numbers for the one (of our 5) machines we lease, and if I did they would be confidential, but from what I recall when we did discuss numbers that seems kind of steep. Was this like a recent model EX?
Jon Gandy
Well-Known Member
How did you end up learning that info?
Jon Gandy
Well-Known Member
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
7 years working 135 with 2.5 of that in management. You pick up a thing or two.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
What is it specifically you are looking for?
hook_dupin
Well-Known Member
As a consultant, I looked into the feasibility of replacing a King Air service with Caravans as part of a M&A deal to acquire a floundering operation. My client eventually elected not to do it. The operation since folded.
Want to see more than you ever want to know about the business side of aviation? Become a CPA with an aviation focus. I'm not one, but those people know everything about everything.
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
EAS is an ugly thing. It's the lure of easy money for those who really don't know the aviation scene.
The only way EAS works is if there is some kind of significant geographical barrier between the passengers and the next step in their journey. Cape Air is a great example...because, water. Living 90 minutes up the Interstate from where "SuperMegaAirlines" flies out of, not so much.
You need to be living in the butt end of nowhere these days to not have access in two hours driving time to some kind of air transportation, and probably "major league" at that. If you do, that's fine, but that doesn't mean you and the three other people who live out there are enough to support air service, even with EAS subsidies. I don't mean to sound cruel, but that's the way it is.
As someone pointed out, the guaranteed profit margin is slim, the airport managements are always looking to replace you with jets (because everyone wants jets, whether they can support them or not), and there is always someone out there who thinks they can do it cheaper. And honestly, the airplanes are too expensive for the routes. The cities involved with EAS almost always develop a hate/hate relationship with the incumbent carrier, leading them to root for ANYONE else to pick up the contract at the next cycle. And the cities have an inordinate amount of say who gets the contract, or better yet, who doesn't.
You need turbines, and that means money. That soaks up all your money. That means you're hiring ground staff at minimum wage, because that's all you can afford. The good news is minimum wage ground staff gives minimum customer service, which does wonders for repeat business.
I worked EAS back in the days before the earth cooled. At an out of the way town, that was 2.5 hours from someplace a major flew, we got, on average, 3 passengers a departure. We made another stop en-route to "ReallyBigHubsburg", and we rarely had more than 7 people get off and airplane built for 19.
"Well, derp, Richman, why didn't you use a smaller airplane?" Because the EAS contracts specify the type equipment, and pressurization was one of the requirements. This route could have been EASILY serviced with a 99 or even a Twin Otter. If you have one engine burp, or you take bird strike....poof goes your profit.
Is there money in EAS? Yup, but it ain't from running airplanes. It's in monopoly fuel providers, aircraft leasing companies, de-ice fluid suppliers, sign makers, officer furniture rental outfits, human resources/payroll management services and expensive "management consultants/brand management firms".
Basically everything BUT running airplanes.
Funny story. So I was looking to make some extra scratch during my tenure at an EAS outfit. Airport was out in the plains. The cost of living was actually very modest and the carrier actually paid above average, but there wasn't much going on. So I go to the airport manager and see if they need someone to cut the grass.
Turns out, "airport lawnmower" is a HIGHLY coveted job. County job, full benes and paid about twice what I was making. He told me that not only was the job highly coveted, but you had to be "juiced in" to get it (meaning you had to know someone in the county). And it wasn't just this place...EVERY airport I've ever been based out of has been like that.
Richman
The only way EAS works is if there is some kind of significant geographical barrier between the passengers and the next step in their journey. Cape Air is a great example...because, water. Living 90 minutes up the Interstate from where "SuperMegaAirlines" flies out of, not so much.
You need to be living in the butt end of nowhere these days to not have access in two hours driving time to some kind of air transportation, and probably "major league" at that. If you do, that's fine, but that doesn't mean you and the three other people who live out there are enough to support air service, even with EAS subsidies. I don't mean to sound cruel, but that's the way it is.
As someone pointed out, the guaranteed profit margin is slim, the airport managements are always looking to replace you with jets (because everyone wants jets, whether they can support them or not), and there is always someone out there who thinks they can do it cheaper. And honestly, the airplanes are too expensive for the routes. The cities involved with EAS almost always develop a hate/hate relationship with the incumbent carrier, leading them to root for ANYONE else to pick up the contract at the next cycle. And the cities have an inordinate amount of say who gets the contract, or better yet, who doesn't.
You need turbines, and that means money. That soaks up all your money. That means you're hiring ground staff at minimum wage, because that's all you can afford. The good news is minimum wage ground staff gives minimum customer service, which does wonders for repeat business.
I worked EAS back in the days before the earth cooled. At an out of the way town, that was 2.5 hours from someplace a major flew, we got, on average, 3 passengers a departure. We made another stop en-route to "ReallyBigHubsburg", and we rarely had more than 7 people get off and airplane built for 19.
"Well, derp, Richman, why didn't you use a smaller airplane?" Because the EAS contracts specify the type equipment, and pressurization was one of the requirements. This route could have been EASILY serviced with a 99 or even a Twin Otter. If you have one engine burp, or you take bird strike....poof goes your profit.
Is there money in EAS? Yup, but it ain't from running airplanes. It's in monopoly fuel providers, aircraft leasing companies, de-ice fluid suppliers, sign makers, officer furniture rental outfits, human resources/payroll management services and expensive "management consultants/brand management firms".
Basically everything BUT running airplanes.
Funny story. So I was looking to make some extra scratch during my tenure at an EAS outfit. Airport was out in the plains. The cost of living was actually very modest and the carrier actually paid above average, but there wasn't much going on. So I go to the airport manager and see if they need someone to cut the grass.
Turns out, "airport lawnmower" is a HIGHLY coveted job. County job, full benes and paid about twice what I was making. He told me that not only was the job highly coveted, but you had to be "juiced in" to get it (meaning you had to know someone in the county). And it wasn't just this place...EVERY airport I've ever been based out of has been like that.
Richman
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
I'm told the reason Great Lakes hasn't completely folded under is that the guy that owns the airline also owns as much of his supply chain as he possibly can. The airline is just the money intake for everything else.
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Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Booty Care?
cmhumphr
Well-Known Member
They are rumored to be opening a BWI base soon.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
knot4u
Repeat Offender
A lot of Lears have Lavs, whether or not anyone would ever use them is up for debate. I worked at a place that had an ass%@$# captain that would drop a deuce in it just so he could tell the FO to clean it.Stop the presses! Article says Cape Air 402s have lavatories?!?
cmhumphr
Well-Known Member
You can't get any lower than that as a professional pilot, and I use the term professional loosely in this case.