Any impact yet?

Sh*t man, this is a job!
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I'm not going to work tomorrow to look gazingly over the Blue Ridge Mountains or the sheer pleasure of arriving at A26 and moving to D35 on a 45 minute turn, I'm going to work in order to earn money for my family unit.

And if I can't earn sufficient money for my family unit, like hell they're going to suffer for the sake of me being happy at work.
 
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But Doug, I'm shocked at your statement. You have the GALL to DEMAND that you be paid well for a job so many others would kill to do for free (with their "Will fly For Food" they bought from Sporty's).


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Oh, and YES!
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Let me make this unequivocably clear: I would not do this job for free.
 
Take it from someone who used to work at home depot, you would definately not want to work there. I only worked part time to help pay for college and it still blew.

Yes, I know you're using it as an analogy...just couldn't resist.

So you're essentially blaming regional pilots who take a low pay check for your troubles, and whipping me for wanting to do that? Ok, thats fine. I'll go with that. Doug, how did you get to where you are today? According to your website, you took a job at a regional. Pay couldn't of been much better back then. I'm confused here.

I read an article not long ago that said if oil prices were close to $30/barrel, even USAir would've broke even. In that case those guys (and I have a friend who's dad is a senior capt for them, so I hope everything works out) wouldn't of taken (or hopefully) a pay cut. Stop playing the blame game on the regioanl guys.

To turn this discussion around, what do you think should be done? Limit the amount of pilots trained? Have the government step in and put a FAR mandated minimum hour requirement for 121 carriers? Re-introduce regulation into the airline industry?

~wheelsup
 
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So you're essentially blaming regional pilots who take a low pay check for your troubles, and whipping me for wanting to do that? Ok, thats fine. I'll go with that. Doug, how did you get to where you are today? According to your website, you took a job at a regional. Pay couldn't of been much better back then. I'm confused here.

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Not to butt in on your question, but I think that regional pilots are hurting themselves. IMHO, Mesa (for sake of argument) has the huge potential to be a career airline, if the pilots pushed for, and the CEOs went for better pay and QOL. And IMO, it would benefit everybody at the airline all around. I'm just as concerned with the airline's ability be profitable as I am with pilot (and F/A, maintenance, everyone) making a decent wage and QOL. Both go hand in hand and complement each other. Why isn't this working at the regionals now? It's because it's seen as a stepping stone. As long as that perception stays, the CEOs will continue to think of all pilots as nothing more than akin to grocery store baggers, and treat them as such. And as long as pilots continue to accept this by jumping all over themselves to take these grocery-bagger jobs, the worse it'll be. And it will only trickle up.

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I read an article not long ago that said if oil prices were close to $30/barrel, even USAir would've broke even. In that case those guys (and I have a friend who's dad is a senior capt for them, so I hope everything works out) wouldn't of taken (or hopefully) a pay cut. Stop playing the blame game on the regioanl guys.

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The bigger problem is that pilots taking pay concessions aren't the answer. As-is, the way airlnes are currently being managed, you could pay pilots zero dollars, and the airline would still be losing money. It's bad management going on. Why do concessions keep getting asked of pilots? Where has the previously conceded money gone? Solve that problem, and one of the major financial problems with the airlines will be answered.

In the meantime, if pilots keep giving concessions......they give an inch anymore, and management will take a mile......as we see with many airlines now.

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To turn this discussion around, what do you think should be done? Limit the amount of pilots trained? Have the government step in and put a FAR mandated minimum hour requirement for 121 carriers? Re-introduce regulation into the airline industry?

~wheelsup

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Airlines should've never been de-regulated. Fact is, it costs a few hundred dollars per pax to go from point A to point B, the $29 from PHX to LA isn't going to cut it to make a profit. Fact is, riding an airline is a luxury that some won't be able to afford.

Pilots are one of the main ones that could make change. If no one wanted to work for Mesa, I guarantee the pay and QOL would change. But with so many pilots looking out for themselves, and flying for nothing for the "love of flying", the CEOs always are guaranteed that they will have a large pool of starry-eyed idiots to replace one disgruntled worker.
 
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Isn't that called ambition?

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No…it’s called lazy
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I wouldn't say the right seat is below my level, just that I don't aspire to be there. As far as not wanting to work, you don't know me.

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Don’t need to know you, we all just read your contradicting statements.
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So what do you propose? Everyone not currently in an airline/flying job give it up so that those that have the jobs can get a pay raise?

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No, I propose you not give these “pilot factories” you, your Daddy’s, or the VA’s money. There are plenty of other “honest” ways to make this a career.
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Regional pay has ALWAYS been low, because employers knew it was a stepping stone.

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No, it is still low because people keep saying, “$@#% YEA I’LL DO IT FOR 17K!!”
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Am I contributing to low pay? Blame me for all your troubles. That's fine.
~wheelsup

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Don’t know. ARE you contributing to it?
I have no troubles, I’m happy as can be where I am, and I am very comfortable with the way I achieved it.
If you want to keep your head in the sand and live in a world of denial, go for it. Like I said, there are a lot of us on here that have already walked the walk. If you want to ignore everything we are saying, that’s your right.

By the way, about the gov’t regulating the industry……They already are my limiting the age and hour requirements to obtain an ATP. It least that was a start.
 
Whoooooah Nelly!

I'm just answering a question about whether or not I'd fly for free.

But surely, if you insist, I'll do my best to answer the questions you presented me.

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So you're essentially blaming regional pilots who take a low pay check for your troubles, and whipping me for wanting to do that?

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No. In fact, to be quite honest (and no offense!) I can't remember reading any of your posts!
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I'm not quite sure how I gave this impression that I'm blaming 'regional pilots' for anything.

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Stop playing the blame game on the regioanl guys.

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See above. Yup, I took a job at $14,400 back in 1996, spent about three or four weeks actually 'doing the work' and realized that I've got to hot foot it out of there because the amount of work compared to my level of compensation was crap. Don't get me wrong, along with my stack of resumes to AA, UA, DL and CO, were resumes to Horizon and other 'top deck' regionals at the time.

But, however, I did drink from the firehose of reality when it comes to management/labor relations and how management uses our 'pilot mentality' against us to keep their costs rock bottom low. There's an airline that I know of that had a annual budget of almost $2 million dollars to a "corporate psychology" consulting firm which does what? Finds methods of keeping productivity up and "unit costs" as low as possible.

What's a "unit"? You and I.

What's the 'pilot mentality'? I could write a book.

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To turn this discussion around, what do you think should be done?

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??? I'm not the Dali Lamma but I did get my hair cut last week. It's certainly the 'perfect storm' of sorts and I'm afraid it's here to stay until the powers that be can break the cabotage laws and then we'll all be traded for cheaper foreign workers.

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Limit the amount of pilots trained?

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Umm, no. How would that help?

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Have the government step in and put a FAR mandated minimum hour requirement for 121 carriers?

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As I've said before, the federal government is not interested in safety whatsoever, nor could I see a minimum amount of hours to serve as SIC doing a whole lot. PIC, yes, SIC no.

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Re-introduce regulation into the airline industry?


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Not quite sure what this has to do with the issue at hand.
 
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No, I propose you not give these “pilot factories” you, your Daddy’s, or the VA’s money. There are plenty of other “honest” ways to make this a career.


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I'm doing the opposite, I'm employed by one as a CFI, building time to move on.

Moving on to what is the next question. I have some time to figure that out.

What honest ways are there? And by honest do you mean not taking a shorter route than you took?
 
*sigh*

Whoops, I guess you 'edited' your previous post...

de-*sigh*
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yep, I figured I don't have to prove anything to anyone about my work ethic, let 'em think what they want to.

~wheelsup
 
Im sideing with what you guys are saying but let me make an arguement for the mesa pilots and you guys tell me if this has any credibility. My personal story short, In HS all I did was play sports and get wasted. I didn't have a dad or siblings for any advice, so when I turned 18 I didn't have any clue about anything. Couldn't get into college so I figured I would be either a bartender or a semi pro golfer on the then Hooters tour. Took an intro flight, got hooked, and was told I could make money doing it. Went to the AF recruiter and he told me "pilots only come from the AF academy". So I picked up a flight training magazine and figured Id have to settle for civilian flying and set out in my car to find what "school" looked the best. Panam was too pricey, Westwind only had (what I thought were dorky looking) cessna, FSA was too pricey and I couldn't get enough info on them. Never heard of ATP at the time . So Mesa looked like a decent bang for the buck flying cool planes. So with no guidance or clue I thought I'd pluck down 40g and become a commercial pilot + they said I had a chance to be a bigshot airline pilot if I did good. Couldn't get a loan (very good thing) and I ended up working at the little 2600 ft strip and earning my my ppl slowly and it's worked out great but slow. But my point is how in the world I have known I was going to be taking down the airline industry from the inside by just trying to find a career? After I found this out when I was an FO on an RJ with a bunch of debt was I going walk away from flying to go manage the taco bell on principle? And I doubt other guys going through the "flight academies" are that much more educated on the subject than I was. So please comment, because that could've been me.
 
The whole JC crowd could pitch in to take out an ad in Flight Training telling future pilots to beware or just tell them to come to jetcareers for a little bus riding!
 
"To turn this discussion around, what do you think should be done?

At Mesa...the pilots should have stood up to JO back during the last contract and forced the issue. They should have put themselves in the position to shut the place down and force all the flying to Freedom. I think JO would have blinked first and offered a better contract rather than risk everythink over Freedom Air.

Of course, you have low time MAPDers that have more to lose if they walk...so that complicates things. See how MAPD plays into JO's hands and hurts the union? I have to say, though, I heard most of the MAPDer's were refusing to go to Freedom....good for them.

The bar has come tumbling down at the majors. The regional guys need to stick together and bring their pay and benefits up each contract...especially if it looks like many of these regional jobs may end up being a career.

Mesa could be a good place to work but I see JO as being next to Lorenzo when it comes to management. JO is about making money for himself and the stockholders. He could care less about the rest. How is that different from any other airline management...not much. But what he did with Freedom Air makes him worse.
 
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JO is about making money for himself and the stockholders. He could care less about the rest. How is that different from any other airline management...not much. But what he did with Freedom Air makes him worse.

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It's totally different. Not many other airlines actually make money
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~wheelsup
 
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"To turn this discussion around, what do you think should be done?

At Mesa...the pilots should have stood up to JO

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Let's stop it right there.

Please don't use "should do" and "should have done" in the same paragraph. Forward thinking only please - monday morning quarterbacking can be done by anyone and accomplishes nothing.

I think WheelsUp has made many valid points and isn't getting credit for where he is. This is coming from a MAPD instructor. He is in the fire himself. I believe he is probably in a better spot to judge than most of us here.

You can blame JO for the worlds problems (just like many here are trying to blame Dubya) but really folks, it's not the fault of just one person. Airline CEOs have a job description which includes paying pilots as little as possible. That's why unions are a necessary evil.

I can't think of any airline situation where pilots truly revered the CEO, even Herb was hated at contract time.
 
Those phrases were in the same paragraph because I was quoteing someones statement. Is it my semantics you have a problem with? Anyhow...what's wrong with looking at the past to help solve the problems of the future?

Secondly, I don't think anyone in the MAPD program is going to have an objective opinion about Mesa. They are all gonna be gung ho and love the system.

No I've never worked for Mesa. But I have a four friends that do. One was a 1900 Capt that went on to AWE, one is a check airman on the RJ, one is a fairly new 1900 Capt, and one is a fairly new Dash 8 F/O. So...my opinions about Mesa's problems are based on my VERY highly pro-union background and what my friends feelings about the place are.

I know your email buddies with JO, JT. But...

Just because YOU'RE here...Is not a reason for US (or me) to "Let's stop it right there", as you have demanded.

You got an opinion? Feel free to share it...but don't come in here telling us (or me) when and where we (or I) should stop.
 
LOL "email buddies"

No I haven't emailed him in a long time. Mostly because I don't care.

If I sounded abrupt it's because I thought you were jumping on wheelsup.

I have been called a negative person but really I'm not. I'm positive most of the time. I don't think airlines are the career they once were, nor will they ever be, but there are certainly folks out there that will enjoy it.

Bashing Mesa is a hot button of mine. The airline gets a bad rap. Most of the bad things at Mesa exist at all airlines. Some things are unique - but every airline has its hell points. Personally, Eagle was the worst airline I ever worked at, but I know a lot of people who love it there.
 
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No I haven't emailed him in a long time. Mostly because I don't care.


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Just like you don't like political debate and I don't like cold beer or buffalo wings.... riiiight!
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