Any impact yet?

Re: Aloft

[ QUOTE ]
I have no direct experience in the military, however, many of the folks I fly with day in and day out are ex-military pilots. I think military training, and the "weeding out" that's involved, results in a pilot capable of doing night traps on a carrier, in an F-18, at 300 hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's the rub: many, MANY military pilots are not capable of this, either. The vast majority of folks sent to the tanker/transport track fall into this category. Though most military heavy drivers would like you to *think* that they're every bit as capable as their fast-mover brethren, the truth is that at some point they were judged by their IPs to not be capable of handling the demands of a tactical aircraft, so off to T-1s they went.


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It's my opinon that MAPD doesn't meet that standard. How many guys who can keep writing the checks get weeded out? I bet very few, though I have no direct knowledge.

So...what makes you any more of an expert on MAPD than I am?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never said I was...but then, nowhere here have I stated my opinion as fact either. The reality is that <1000-hour pilots are put into the right seat of jets regularly; virtually every foreign airline does it, and yes, sometimes with poor results. Which isn't to say that seasoned pilots aren't capable of mistakes too, because the NTSB annals are full of them. My point is that the yardstick should be about a pilot's skill level, not how many hundreds of hours they have in a 152 repeating "more right rudder" and "hold it off" til they're numb. Do they have the judgment that a more experienced pilot would? Of course not, but that's what captains are for.
 
My first couple hundred hours in the right seat of a jet I'm gonna have to be baby sat. Even if I have 2000 TT and 300+ multi in high performance piston twins. Transition to a jet (me thinks!) will take a bit getting used to.

I would think even if I had 5000 hours and 4000 multi in piston twins I'm gonna need to be baby sat. TT isn't everything and its unfornatunate that you think so.

Yes the military puts guys in fighter jets at low TT but then again, they train on turbine equip. right after private.

If anything MAPD and like schools are actually helping low timer pilots out - the days of having to build tons of time just to go into a turboprop are gone. I think the reason people are pissed off is because "in the old days" ya had to walk uphill both ways in 4 feet of snow (i.e. build tons of time) and then you'd get the opportunity to fly for an airline, and they're pissed that people with 250 TT are doing it nowadays. Get off it, times have changed. Instead of 1 or 2 years at a regional and then a major you're looking at 8+ years.

You'd be surprised to know how many FORMER MAPD'ers are now at AWA and SWA, among others.

The only thing MAPD'ers really don't have an education on is weather - almost no Tstorms/rain/etc. up in NM.

Keep in mind, MAPD is NOT a direct line to Mesa Air Group. MAPD is very proud of the fact that 85-90% of graduates have been placed with Mesa, but they still have to interview with Mesa just like everyone else.

~wheelsup
 
Re: Aloft

"There's the rub: many, MANY military pilots are not capable of this, either. The vast majority of folks sent to the tanker/transport track fall into this category"

Well...I don't know. It's my understanding that you get your choice of aircraft based on your rank after UPT and the needs of the service. If the number one guy wants transports and there is a slot...that that's what he gets. I think your statement slams transport/tanker guys and I think it's inaccurate. I'll be sure to ask around, though, when I go back to work.

I don't know why my opinon is any more factual than your opinion. I give my opinions based on what I've seen, heard, and experienced over the years on my way up to 757/767 pilot at UPS. I started flying in 1978. I would rarely claim my opionions to be proven facts. You're right, the closer you get to UPS and 727's and 757/767's, the more likely my opionions will be facts. At the same time, I can promise you it's a fact that I'm glad that I won't have to fly with a 300 hour F/O. I also promise you that 99 percent of the Capts I fly with would share my opinion. I'll be sure to start asking around. Of course, we could all be wrong.....

That would be your opinion.
 
Re: Aloft

I think MikeD was near the top of his class and picked the A-10.

A lot of the guys that were on the 'airline track' selected tankers and heavy transports for the flight time.

It really all depends.
 
Re: Aloft

[ QUOTE ]
I think MikeD was near the top of his class and picked the A-10.

A lot of the guys that were on the 'airline track' selected tankers and heavy transports for the flight time.

It really all depends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

Let's put some rumors to rest right here. And this is coming from a guy that (me) that has seen both sides of the fence.

First off. military training and Mesa Airlines are two polar opposites. I can guarantee that the getting on with Mesa and getting through training there is far easier than getting on with the military and passing their training.

And on a related note, ANYONE that thinks that someone that flies a T-1 (Beechjet 400) and goes to fly tankers and transports simply because they were a "weak pilot" is plain wrong. What a total slam on all airline and corporate pilots out there with this kind of thinking......using this logic, they must all be weak dicks.

I'd take a 300 hour USAF trained pilot in the right seat of a C-21 over some buy-a-job, take-anyone-willing-to-[censored]-themselves-out flight academy person.

One program requires one to actually qualify to get in, the other requires the same person to merely have enough money.
 
[ QUOTE ]


Once upon a time, the training military pilots underwent was untouchable; it was the best there is. Today, I don't think that's entirely the case. Military training is still very good, but there are also very good civilian training programs out there. The military may have better facilities than most, and better/more advanced equipment, but when it comes right down to it, it's a matter of the quality of instruction and of the individual instructor(s) one learns from. Is a fresh-outta-PIT (USAF Pilot Instructor Training) better than EVERY civilian CFI out there? Highly unlikely. Is USAF academic training better in every respect than every civilian program out there? Also unlikely. I've read a number of the USAF SUPT texts and while they're all quite good, I wouldn't say that they're better than their civilian analogues. Example: AFMAN 11-217, Instrument Flight Procedures (available online: Vol 1, Vol 2) is quite good, but is it better than every civilian IFR text out there? Not necessarily.



[/ QUOTE ]

Mil training still is the best there is. I can guarantee that if you take a mil guy and put him through Mesa's program, and take a Mesa guy and put him through UPT, there's a far better chance for the civilian to wash out of UPT than the other way around.

Regards the textbooks. What does that compare? IFR ops is IFR ops wherever you go.....it doesn't change from mil to civilian or the other way around. And there's only so many ways to describe the stuff in written form. Now, the kind of training you get with that info, the depth of training you get with that info, how and where you apply it; I guarantee the mil guy gets more in-depth than the civilian does. How many civilian guys know what a PAR is or how to perform a radar approach if need be; or have even performed one? Next to none. Regardless of whether or not they may or may not ever perform one, it's simply an example of the more in-depth knowlege the typical mil pilot will have over the typical civilian.

BL is, the military is not a pilot mill. Airlines with big turnover, such as Mesa, and the DCA/TAB,etc, et al flight academies; are.
 
"You'd be surprised to know how many FORMER MAPD'ers are now at AWA and SWA, among others."

Not really...I never said it doesn't work. MAPD has been around a long time and guys aren't likely to stay at Mesa one second longer than they have to. My argument is simply that super low time guys don't belong in the right seat of a jet airliner.

"I would think even if I had 5000 hours and 4000 multi in piston twins I'm gonna need to be baby sat."

Maybe a little bit, but with that kind of backgroud you'd have a wealth of knowlege to bring to the operation. Are you trying to say a 300 hour guys knowledge/background is equal to a 5000/4000 guys knowledge/background? Even with Mesa's great training? (as an aside, why should Mesa's high standard's with MAPDer's be any better than the rest of the company? I have several friends who fly for Mesa who are appalled at the shortcuts taken in the operation)

With 5000 total and 4000 multi, you have more time than many of the Capts. If you had 4000 multi that was 135 freight, dammn.... You'd have some serious tricks up your sleeve and would have seen things that even your Capts have never seen. YOU'D have the background to teach the Capt a thing or two. A 300 hour MAPDer isn't going to be teaching squat to no one....

People...what I'm trying to get across here is that being a pilot isn't just about what training program you went through. It's about experience and background. Things you've seen. Things you've done. Things that have happened to you.

I've gone though more training programs than you can shake a stick at but the sum total of what I bring to the table as a pilot is soooooo much more than "company required, minimum standards to get you out the door, training". All training is like that cause getting you out the door is all management cares about. I hardly think Mesa's standards are setting any kind of new ground, either, based on what my friends who work there are saying.

"I think the reason people are pissed off is because "in the old days" ya had to walk uphill both ways in 4 feet of snow (i.e. build tons of time) and then you'd get the opportunity to fly for an airline, and they're pissed that people with 250 TT are doing it nowadays. Get off it, times have changed..."

Yeah...whatever. You finally got me figured out. Just some old guy who doesn't like the new way things are done. Actually, what I'd like to see is every airline pilot to have 500 hours of 135 multi-engine freight under their belt. That would be old fashioned, but effective.

Just to say again to the folks that read Flight Training and think the only way to become an airline pilot is through one of the "fancy ad flight programs". Nobody who I'm friends with has gone to one of these schools. People I've mentored over the years run the spectrum from "70 hour about to have an instrument rating" to "Delta (furloughed)". Everything in between. Many at Mesa (and to the man, they are looking to get out ASAP) You wanna do MAPD? Go for it....let us know how it turns out. Personally, I think things could get pretty sketchy over there if US Air tanks. MAPD is a revenue source for JO....he'll play it for all it's worth with no regard to you.
 
[ QUOTE ]
" "I think the reason people are pissed off is because "in the old days" ya had to walk uphill both ways in 4 feet of snow (i.e. build tons of time) and then you'd get the opportunity to fly for an airline, and they're pissed that people with 250 TT are doing it nowadays. Get off it, times have changed..."

MAPD is a revenue source for JO....he'll play it for all it's worth with no regard to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You hit the nail on the head there, Don. For the life of me, I can't figure out why some people defend Mesa's severe QOL problems and pay, and in essence, defend the idiot CEO JO. The only reason I can think of is that the people that do this, only have the opinion they do because it suits their needs right now. I mean who can actually support the fact that a 1900 FO makes 16K/yr? But, nothing will change at that airline because the pilots have no leverage.......for every pilot there, there is 50 more pilots with rosy-colored glasses and their resume and cash ready to get hired on and have the chance to put on 3-stripes on an epaulet. It's so dog eat dog regards unity, or lack therof, that nothing will ever get better in that place. So the only people that defend places like Mesa, are those that aspire to go there....why else would someone willingly work as a supposed professional for a place that treats you like a bitch openly? It's because it suits their needs, right now, to support an operation like Mesa....though at any other time, they'd rail against an operation like this.

The whole situation there will never get better there so long as all these "what can I do for me" people keep willing to work there "for the love of flying" or because of the "view from FL 290 that brings a tear to their eye"....but doesn't come close to paying the bills. These freaking starry-eyed idiots should be shot at sundown for what they're doing to the industry.......at the regional level now, but I guarantee will "trickle-up" to the majors soon enough.

Best I heard someone put it recently is it's akin to a seafood restaraunt where you have the proverbial tank full of live crabs. The crabs sit piled up on each other in the tank. Each crab tries to climb up to the top of the tank, using whatever other crab it can walk over to get there. Every now and again, one crab slips as it's climbing and falls a few levels, conveniently providing leverage for another crab to get a toehold and start it's climb over everyone else. This is about as akin to the cheap-ass regional airline rat race the low-time wannabe's are doing now.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mil training still is the best there is. I can guarantee that if you take a mil guy and put him through Mesa's program, and take a Mesa guy and put him through UPT, there's a far better chance for the civilian to wash out of UPT than the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me that says more about the people selected for UPT than UPT itself, wouldn't you agree?

[ QUOTE ]
And on a related note, ANYONE that thinks that someone that flies a T-1 (Beechjet 400) and goes to fly tankers and transports simply because they were a "weak pilot" is plain wrong. What a total slam on all airline and corporate pilots out there with this kind of thinking......using this logic, they must all be weak dicks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, Mike--if you're going to take issue with what I say, at least do it with stuff I *actually said.* No one said anything about them being "weak pilots". No one. But you know as well as I do that the tanker/transport track represents the bottom half of each SUPT class come track-select. You yourself didn't get the fighter track by being in the bottom half of your class now, did you. (Of course, there are exceptions, such as those who choose the tanker/transport track and guard/reserve guys whose aircraft assignment is a function of their home unit's aircraft.)

(Don, USAF UPT evolved into what's called "Specialized" UPT a number of years ago, becoming a triple-track program; all students complete T-37s or T-6s, then are selected for the helicopter, fighter/attack/recon/bomber or tanker/transport track for the second half. Track selection is based on personal preference, mitigated by academic/flight performance and instructor evaluation. The rotary wing track is taught at Fort Rucker, Alabama, the fighter/attack/recon/bomber track is conducted in T-38s, and the tanker/transport track is done in the T-1 Beechjet. Though final aircraft selection is based on preferences, class rank and availability, tanker/transport track people don't go to fighters and vice versa.)
 
[ QUOTE ]
You yourself didn't get the fighter track by being in the bottom half of your clase now, did you. (Of course, there are exceptions, such as those who choose the tanker/transport track and guard/reserve guys whose aircraft assignment is a function of their home unit's aircraft.)

(

[/ QUOTE ]

I fought like hell for an E-3, but was forced to take an A-10.
wink.gif
wink.gif
 
When did we go from admission to training? The military is looking for warm bodies right now. Don't any of you watch TV? "I'm an Army of One."

Now training is another story ...

One thing though, there is a high washout rate at MAPD, and there should be. An Ab Initio pilot has not had a chance to find out if he or she is pilot material, even simple things like air sickness. (side note: I flew with an Embry Riddle grad who got sick every time we took off. I don't have any idea why she stayed with aviation as long as she did.)

There are more than a couple of reasons that Mesa likes MAPD. I doubt very much that it is the "cash cow" you are all talking about but it pays for itself and provides a steady pilot pool. It provides pilots that need less "transition to big plane training." But the big reason is that MAPD, like all Ab Initio programs, provides well-trained low-time pilots who still love to fly, and will be less likely to work the system.

The "seasoned vet" may be more likely to avoid a crash (and this is a hot topic for another thread) but they will also know how to bid around work, quote union contract rules, and file grievances. The Newbie who has 250 hrs WANTS you to call him at 1 am for a repo flight!

And WheelsUp - You said that MAPDers weak spot is weather. While it may be a weak point I bet 9 out of 10 line captains will say Situational Awareness/radio work is the weakest link in the chain. Especially in high traffic areas like PHL and LGA, where you need to listen fast, and talk clearly, succintly and to the point. I know you are an instructor there and I bet you get kudos if you can work on that area!
 
The only failure of that rationale is that a young, neophyte pilot supposedly chomping at the bits to be called by crew scheduling usually morphs into someone who 'works the system' fairly quickly.

I was pretty 'gung ho' for about three months as a regional pilot before luster wore off and I started looking at bigger 'n better opportunities.
 
Aloft

"Though most military heavy drivers would like you to *think* that they're every bit as capable as their fast-mover brethren, the truth is that at some point they were judged by their IPs to not be capable of handling the demands of a tactical aircraft, so off to T-1s they went."

And then you said...

"Come on, Mike--if you're going to take issue with what I say, at least do it with stuff I *actually said.* No one said anything about them being "weak pilots". No one."

Explain how these aren't contradictory statements? I got from your first statement that tanker/transport guys were too weak as pilots to be tactical guys....
 
[ QUOTE ]
I mean who can actually support the fact that a 1900 FO makes 16K/yr? But, nothing will change at that airline because the pilots have no leverage.......for every pilot there, there is 50 more pilots with rosy-colored glasses and their resume and cash ready to get hired on and have the chance to put on 3-stripes on an epaulet.



[/ QUOTE ]

This argument has a flaw. Firstly, you make what-ever amount of low pay your first year or two (maybe more for the lowtimers who can't upgrade). This is the way it is at all regionals. It doesn't saty at 16k/yr FOREVER.

Second, how many people want to work for the majors. Don't you think that if Delta's pay was cut by 50% people would still want to fly there? I think so. I'm not saying I would, I'm just saying plenty of people would want to. Pilots there essentially have no leverage, but their unions do their job and work hard for working conditions. If that's done at Mesa, and costs go up, Mesa loses the contracts and everyone loses their job. It's not like they have a choice there.

If the military (not sure what branch you're in) called and said they were gonna lay off everyone in your branch because the guys in the other branches were gonna do your job for 20% less, would you walk out and lose your job or take the 20% pay cut to keep your job?

[ QUOTE ]
It's so dog eat dog regards unity, or lack therof, that nothing will ever get better in that place. So the only people that defend places like Mesa, are those that aspire to go there....why else would someone willingly work as a supposed professional for a place that treats you like a bitch openly? It's because it suits their needs, right now, to support an operation like Mesa....though at any other time, they'd rail against an operation like this.


[/ QUOTE ]

And NO OTHER 121 regional treats guys like crap? Before comair's new contract, their take home pay a month was $952 and change. Great Lakes pays 1st year f/o's $15/hour.
For your first 4 years as an f/o & capt. you make more at Mesa than Expressjet. It's a step to bigger and better things, instead of spending 10 years at a regional, many mesa guys go on to SWA and AWA after a few years of PIC. Instead of waiting for 8 years to upgrade and then building the PIC time, people would rather spend the time for effciently and I'm one of them. Pre-911, upgrade time was low but now it's extremely high (I'm sure you don't have to be told that). I want to keep my gear-biatch time to a minimum.

[ QUOTE ]
These freaking starry-eyed idiots should be shot at sundown for what they're doing to the industry.......at the regional level now, but I guarantee will "trickle-up" to the majors soon enough.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, there are plenty of starry eyed regional capts just waiting to get to a major. This argument doesn't hold with me. Your "i'm holier than thou" attitude says a lot about your personality.


[ QUOTE ]
Best I heard someone put it recently is it's akin to a seafood restaraunt where you have the proverbial tank full of live crabs. Every now and again, one crab slips as it's climbing and falls a few levels, conveniently providing leverage for another crab to get a toehold and start it's climb over everyone else. This is about as akin to the cheap-ass regional airline rat race the low-time wannabe's are doing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is the only industry where this happens?

My father spent 22 years in the Air Force, retired as a liet. colonel. Guess what MikeD, he went out the next week and found a job in the civ. world paying 3x what he was making in the force (true story!). Hell, his current employer just gave him a 3 year unlimited-renewable lease on a Mercedes C320. Did you get that in the military? How is this situation different from the starry-eyed kids making peanuts to go on to bigger and better things? Hmmmmm?

Point being, the military isn't unlike mesa or any regional carrier. Once you get out, you'll go to fedex or united or whereever as long as they're hiring and make a ton more money.

~wheelsup
 
Congratulations.
With attitudes like yours and aloft, metro bus drivers will be making more than widebody captains in 20 years. And both of you will be asking where the $300K salaries went from "the old days."

You have again proved the "Riddle Brat" theory. You want to get there as quick as you can without working to get there, then you want to upgrade as soon as possible because the "right seat" is below your level.

You say low pay can't hurt? It's only for the first few years? Well guess what, you have some very "mature" professional pilots on this board who are flying ATFs, Widebodies, and high altitude business jets with many years experience in the "real world." We are telling you that it HAS and IS hurting the industry. Explain how the size and complexity of regional a/c have tripled in the last 15 years, yet the pay is practically the same?

Every person taking a 17K check to fly a 50 seat jet puts another nail in the coffin. The reason places like MESA train ab initio is because they HAVE to. If there was no such program, there is no pilot on the planet, furloughed or not, that would fly an RJ for anywhere near 20K, and employers would have to increase the pay. As it is now, there is no incentive for them to raise pay. Why should they when a glossy ad can get a "starry eyed" low timer to do it. MESA knows how many people they will need to hire vs. how many will wash out. And they know how many they need to train to account for the washout. They may have to train 100 pilots to get 20 FO slots down the road. And they do this year, after year, after year, after year.....Pilot shortage?
 
Re: Aloft

[ QUOTE ]

There's the rub: many, MANY military pilots are not capable of this, either. The vast majority of folks sent to the tanker/transport track fall into this category. Though most military heavy drivers would like you to *think* that they're every bit as capable as their fast-mover brethren, the truth is that at some point they were judged by their IPs to not be capable of handling the demands of a tactical aircraft, so off to T-1s they went.



[/ QUOTE ]

Think before you speak. There are so many more variables that go into this. What an insult, coupled with WTF do you know?
 
[ QUOTE ]
You want to get there as quick as you can without working to get there, then you want to upgrade as soon as possible because the "right seat" is below your level.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that called ambition? I wouldn't say the right seat is below my level, just that I don't aspire to be there. I was talking to an ex-united express pilot. Not sure which company he worked for, but pre-911 upgrade time in his company was 3 months. 3 MONTHS.

As far as not wanting to work, you don't know me. Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum. Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]

You say low pay can't hurt? It's only for the first few years? Well guess what, you have some very "mature" professional pilots on this board who are flying ATFs, Widebodies, and high altitude business jets with many years experience in the "real world." We are telling you that it HAS and IS hurting the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. So what do you propose? Everyone not currently in an airline/flying job give it up so that those that have the jobs can get a pay raise? How about YOU give up your job so others can enjoy the pay raise? There's no easy way around it. Regional pay has ALWAYS been low, because employers knew it was a stepping stone. If there was movement to the majors these days would people be complaining about pay? Probably not as much because pilots would see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[ QUOTE ]

As it is now, there is no incentive for them to raise pay


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and it sucks. Am I contributing to low pay? Blame me. Blame me for all your troubles. That's fine. Do what you need to do to rationalize the state of the industry. Don't blame high oil prices, low ticket prices (and the internet searches), competition, management, etc.

~wheelsup
 
[ QUOTE ]

This argument has a flaw. Firstly, you make what-ever amount of low pay your first year or two (maybe more for the lowtimers who can't upgrade). This is the way it is at all regionals. It doesn't saty at 16k/yr FOREVER.

[/ QUOTE ]

first, you're missing my point. I'm not only talking about 1st year pay, I'm talking about overall pay all the way through....since the job is looked at and treated as still an "entry level" job by both management as well as the pilots. The management doesn't think the pilots are professionals, and hence don't treat them as such. The pilots don't think of themselves as professionals because they keep going after these jobs for the ability to wear epaulets. My point is, that so long as the regionals (ALL of them besides some of the better ones like Skywest or Hoizon) are treated as STILL being entry-level aviaton employment, the longer the "professional" pilots there will be treated as such.

[ QUOTE ]

Second, how many people want to work for the majors. Don't you think that if Delta's pay was cut by 50% people would still want to fly there? I think so. I'm not saying I would, I'm just saying plenty of people would want to. Pilots there essentially have no leverage, but their unions do their job and work hard for working conditions. If that's done at Mesa, and costs go up, Mesa loses the contracts and everyone loses their job. It's not like they have a choice there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mesa (and we're just using that example right now.....substitute many other regionals here too) pilots do have the abilty through their union to do things, but there's many other problems associated with that right now. Point is, if concessions keep getting given by the pilots to management, and the money keeps getting flushed down the toilet, at what point will it stop? When the pilots are finally working for free?

[ QUOTE ]

If the military (not sure what branch you're in) called and said they were gonna lay off everyone in your branch because the guys in the other branches were gonna do your job for 20% less, would you walk out and lose your job or take the 20% pay cut to keep your job?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this hypothetical, for one I'd probably not have much choice in what to do it being the military....but to go with your hypothetical for sake of argument, if the trend was that this is the second or third cut coming down the line, and who the hell knows where the previous concession money went.....then I'd have to seriously go find something else to do, since as much as I love flying, I still need the job to pay the bills, not to mention maintaining some semblance of self-respect.

[ QUOTE ]
And NO OTHER 121 regional treats guys like crap? Before comair's new contract, their take home pay a month was $952 and change. Great Lakes pays 1st year f/o's $15/hour.
For your first 4 years as an f/o & capt. you make more at Mesa than Expressjet. It's a step to bigger and better things, instead of spending 10 years at a regional, many mesa guys go on to SWA and AWA after a few years of PIC. Instead of waiting for 8 years to upgrade and then building the PIC time, people would rather spend the time for effciently and I'm one of them. Pre-911, upgrade time was low but now it's extremely high (I'm sure you don't have to be told that). I want to keep my gear-biatch time to a minimum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I'm talking about Mesa because this is the Mesa forum, but substitute nearly any other regional here and the argument is the same and valid. But let me ask you this......so you keep taking low pay because you'll be getting worthwhile time for the greener grasses ahead....at what poin will you refuse to do this? CEOs love rosy, starry-eyed people like you, because if the RJ-70 guys is going to work for beans, why can't the Delta MD-88 guy work for beans also? I mean they do the same job, right? So by accepting the low wages now, you WILL set a standard of "bar lowering" for pay that I guarantee will trickle up to the majors....to the point where you'll still be making 40K to fly a MD-80 for XYZ major down the road. CEOs of the majors see what's going on below, and that's their bargaining leverage to bring wages down in the majors.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, there are plenty of starry eyed regional capts just waiting to get to a major. This argument doesn't hold with me. Your "i'm holier than thou" attitude says a lot about your personality.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because I've been there and done that, junior. I'm not holier-than-thou, I've just seen enough in my time that you haven't the first freaking clue about, young FNG.

Again, you don't subscribe, because it's not in your best interest to do so, regardless of how logical the argument is. To agree with the logic, would be classifying yourself into the category being discussed ala starry-eyed what's-my-fastest-chance-to-wearing-epaulets-regardless-of-pay pilot.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Best I heard someone put it recently is it's akin to a seafood restaraunt where you have the proverbial tank full of live crabs. Every now and again, one crab slips as it's climbing and falls a few levels, conveniently providing leverage for another crab to get a toehold and start it's climb over everyone else. This is about as akin to the cheap-ass regional airline rat race the low-time wannabe's are doing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is the only industry where this happens?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't deflect the argument. Of course this isn't the only industry this happens in, but this is our industry, and we should be taking care of it, because the CEOs and management sure as hell aren't looking out for you. Who gives a crap what's happening in other industry's. Just because it's wrong there doesn't mean it should be accepted here.

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My father spent 22 years in the Air Force, retired as a liet. colonel. Guess what MikeD, he went out the next week and found a job in the civ. world paying 3x what he was making in the force (true story!). Hell, his current employer just gave him a 3 year unlimited-renewable lease on a Mercedes C320. Did you get that in the military? How is this situation different from the starry-eyed kids making peanuts to go on to bigger and better things? Hmmmmm?

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You're argument is off on a tangent again, young buck. Again, for the fiftieth time, IF you accept low wages now, you're in essence telling the guys at the majors that you'll do the job for nothing.....that's the trend the industry is going. So, the green grasses you seek later in life, will likely not be there due to the actions of what you were willing to accept here and now.

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Point being, the military isn't unlike mesa or any regional carrier. Once you get out, you'll go to fedex or united or whereever as long as they're hiring and make a ton more money.

~wheelsup

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Hey, it's cool to dump any sort of self-respect now, since the grass will always be green ahead............or so you hope.

Wake up and smell the coffee. JO would love you as a biach for his company.
 
Dude, if I took a 50% pay cut, hell, 32.5% is about my limit as it is, I'd much rather work at Home Depot than spend 18 days a month on the road away from my family just for the pleasure of flying an airplane.

Can't pay your mortgage or raise a family with 'job satisfaction' alone.
 
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Dude, if I took a 50% pay cut, hell, 32.5% is about my limit as it is, I'd much rather work at Home Depot than spend 18 days a month on the road away from my family just for the pleasure of flying an airplane.

Can't pay your mortgage or raise a family with 'job satisfaction' alone.


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But Doug, I'm shocked at your statement. You have the GALL to DEMAND that you be paid well for a job so many others would kill to do for free (with their "Will fly For Food" they bought from Sporty's).

You mean to tell me that you're not doing this for the simple love of flying or the "view from FL370 that brings a tear to your eye?"
 
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