Any impact yet?
- Thread starter TheWife
- Start date
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I think I'm gonna invest my $10K in CFI ratings. After I get 200 dual given, if things are still looking okay on the Mesa end, I might apply for instructor at MAPD. I just feel a little sketchy handing over that much cash on a gamble. I normally don't do well in Vegas, so I imagine that would translate to this.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I'll be honest, it's a little depressing watching "kids" as young as 20 leave to fly a CRJ with 250 hours while you're stilling instructing @ 1500. It's a great job though, don't get me wrong, but I'd sure love to be flying an airliner if I had the choice
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It's life I guess
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We definately did it the wrong way!
~wheelsup
It's life I guess
We definately did it the wrong way!
~wheelsup
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"it's a little depressing watching "kids" as young as 20 leave to fly a CRJ with 250 hours "
What's really depressing is that JO's "be an airline pilot" school let's 250 hour wonders be an F/O in a CRJ. Now that's depressing....
I don't care how well trained those guys are...they got no business in that seat with those times. You just can't train a guy to be a good 121 jet F/O at 250 hours. At least one that isn't a liability to his Capt and the operation.
I have a friend that does IOE at Mesa. Trust me, some of those guys have no business being in that seat. All of them lack the experience to do a good job for the first couple of hundred hours (my opinion, not his).
Programs like MAPD make a lot of money for Mesa. The system works because the Mesa Capt's experience and willingness to put up with these low time F/O's overrides common sense. A deal like that would never fly anywhere else....
Except for Gulfstream and TAB.
MAPD is just another tool JO uses to make money and control his pilot group. Same as Freedom Air....
What's really depressing is that JO's "be an airline pilot" school let's 250 hour wonders be an F/O in a CRJ. Now that's depressing....
I don't care how well trained those guys are...they got no business in that seat with those times. You just can't train a guy to be a good 121 jet F/O at 250 hours. At least one that isn't a liability to his Capt and the operation.
I have a friend that does IOE at Mesa. Trust me, some of those guys have no business being in that seat. All of them lack the experience to do a good job for the first couple of hundred hours (my opinion, not his).
Programs like MAPD make a lot of money for Mesa. The system works because the Mesa Capt's experience and willingness to put up with these low time F/O's overrides common sense. A deal like that would never fly anywhere else....
Except for Gulfstream and TAB.
MAPD is just another tool JO uses to make money and control his pilot group. Same as Freedom Air....
A good part of Orenstein's negotiating leverage comes from the idea that "You want a raise and better working conditions? Here's a stack of resumes from kids that are lined up to pay ME phat dollars to fly with your current pay/working conditions - why should I improve things again?"
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A good part of Orenstein's negotiating leverage comes from the idea that "You want a raise and better working conditions? Here's a stack of resumes from kids that are lined up to pay ME phat dollars to fly with your current pay/working conditions - why should I improve things again?"
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And that's exactly the reason nothing does or can get done over there. Pilots willing to come to work for nothing, pilots in-place trying to imporve conditions....leads to a union that can't or maybe won't do anything about it, coupled with a crazy as hell (or maybe mad genious?) CEO...............and that's what it all adds up to.
A good part of Orenstein's negotiating leverage comes from the idea that "You want a raise and better working conditions? Here's a stack of resumes from kids that are lined up to pay ME phat dollars to fly with your current pay/working conditions - why should I improve things again?"
[/ QUOTE ]
And that's exactly the reason nothing does or can get done over there. Pilots willing to come to work for nothing, pilots in-place trying to imporve conditions....leads to a union that can't or maybe won't do anything about it, coupled with a crazy as hell (or maybe mad genious?) CEO...............and that's what it all adds up to.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
[ QUOTE ]
MAPD is just another tool JO uses to make money and control his pilot group. Same as Freedom Air....
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See, this is why I think the program should be called something OTHER than Mesa Pilot Development. SAN JUAN COMMUNITY COLLEGE makes a lot of money off the program. Mesa just gets a lot of FOs they know won't jump ship for several years since they don't have the TT to go anywhere else. Having the name "Mesa" on the program paints a big bullseye right on the program from the start.
BTW, there are 1200 hour CFIs washing out of XJT training while some 800 hr guys are getting through. TT is NOT everything.
MAPD is just another tool JO uses to make money and control his pilot group. Same as Freedom Air....
[/ QUOTE ]
See, this is why I think the program should be called something OTHER than Mesa Pilot Development. SAN JUAN COMMUNITY COLLEGE makes a lot of money off the program. Mesa just gets a lot of FOs they know won't jump ship for several years since they don't have the TT to go anywhere else. Having the name "Mesa" on the program paints a big bullseye right on the program from the start.
BTW, there are 1200 hour CFIs washing out of XJT training while some 800 hr guys are getting through. TT is NOT everything.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"TT is NOT everything."
People with all kinds of backgrounds and situations can wash out of training. That doesn't make it right to put 300 hour pilots in the right seat of a jet. I'd like to see a breakdown of the backgrounds of those who are not successful in training to see if there is a pattern....low time vs high time.
People with all kinds of backgrounds and situations can wash out of training. That doesn't make it right to put 300 hour pilots in the right seat of a jet. I'd like to see a breakdown of the backgrounds of those who are not successful in training to see if there is a pattern....low time vs high time.
aloft
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
"it's a little depressing watching "kids" as young as 20 leave to fly a CRJ with 250 hours "
What's really depressing is that JO's "be an airline pilot" school let's 250 hour wonders be an F/O in a CRJ. Now that's depressing....
I don't care how well trained those guys are...they got no business in that seat with those times. You just can't train a guy to be a good 121 jet F/O at 250 hours. At least one that isn't a liability to his Capt and the operation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, let's keep in mind this scenario happens EVERY DAY in the military.
"it's a little depressing watching "kids" as young as 20 leave to fly a CRJ with 250 hours "
What's really depressing is that JO's "be an airline pilot" school let's 250 hour wonders be an F/O in a CRJ. Now that's depressing....
I don't care how well trained those guys are...they got no business in that seat with those times. You just can't train a guy to be a good 121 jet F/O at 250 hours. At least one that isn't a liability to his Capt and the operation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, let's keep in mind this scenario happens EVERY DAY in the military.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Don, I REALLY respect your opinions (and I've actually changed some of my views on flight training based on things you've said here), but you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder on this one. Yes, Mesa's program isn't as selective as the military, but CRJ pilots are tooling around at Mach 2 in formation shooting at things miles away, either. Everyone that goes through airline training has to complete the exact same program, orals and checkrides whether they have 1200 hours or 500. It's up to that individual to make it work. Now, the 500 hour guys HAS to realize that he is EXTREMELY lucky to be in the position he's in, and that there are other guys out there that would kill to be there instead of him. If he takes it as "well, I passed the interview, so I must deserve the job" then he deserves to wash out. It's a burden on us low time guys to work twice as hard if we're given the chance, if nothing else just to prove to the nay sayers that we ARE capable. If you are in fact not capable, then the training program will do its job and weed you out. 1000 hour magic mark is NOT a guarantee that you will make it through training, and it does not mean that you are necessarily better than everyone else. Comments you've made here basically boil down to that if you don't have at least 1000 hours, then you don't deserve to fly for an airline. I don't buy that. If you work hard(er) in training, and pass the same checkride that those 1000 hour CFIs pass, then maybe you CAN fly the darn plane. It's kinda like that "what do you call a guy that graduated last in med school" line. In the end, we're all pilots. If you've got stats saying that some of these 300-999 hour wonders were the cause of an accident, I'd like to see them.
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Again...let's keep in mind that Mesa's standards for hiring MAPDer's don't equal those of the military....
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Don, unless I've missed something, I don't believe you've got experience with either--so really, this is little more than speculation on your part.
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So are we switching to the unless-you've-"been-there-done-that"-your-opinion-is-invalid style of thinking? If so this is going to be a pretty dang quiet website.
[ QUOTE ]
Again...let's keep in mind that Mesa's standards for hiring MAPDer's don't equal those of the military....
[/ QUOTE ]
Don, unless I've missed something, I don't believe you've got experience with either--so really, this is little more than speculation on your part.
[/ QUOTE ]
So are we switching to the unless-you've-"been-there-done-that"-your-opinion-is-invalid style of thinking? If so this is going to be a pretty dang quiet website.
aloft
New Member
He wasn't stating an opinion, he was stating as fact something he has no direct experience with.
Had he said something like "it seems to me that the two aren't exactly comparable", that'd be fine--and would leave his position open to counterpoints.
You won't find me questioning Don's view on anything related to 727s or UPS because he's got direct experience and thus credibility. But unless I'm mistaken, he has never been a military pilot or military student pilot, or a student/instructor at MAPD or a pilot at Mesa. Therefore, his *opinion* on these is of limited credibility.
Once upon a time, the training military pilots underwent was untouchable; it was the best there is. Today, I don't think that's entirely the case. Military training is still very good, but there are also very good civilian training programs out there. The military may have better facilities than most, and better/more advanced equipment, but when it comes right down to it, it's a matter of the quality of instruction and of the individual instructor(s) one learns from. Is a fresh-outta-PIT (USAF Pilot Instructor Training) better than EVERY civilian CFI out there? Highly unlikely. Is USAF academic training better in every respect than every civilian program out there? Also unlikely. I've read a number of the USAF SUPT texts and while they're all quite good, I wouldn't say that they're better than their civilian analogues. Example: AFMAN 11-217, Instrument Flight Procedures (available online: Vol 1, Vol 2) is quite good, but is it better than every civilian IFR text out there? Not necessarily.
The moral of the story is that USAF puts 250 hour pilots in the right seat of KC-10s, C-5s, and C-17s every day with no ill-effects. Maybe--just maybe--this works out at Mesa, too. Admittedly, I have no first-hand knowledge of the situation with MAPD grads at Mesa, but the anecdotal evidence I've seen on MesaLounge and other places is that most 300-hour MAPDers do just fine in the right seat of an RJ. I'll defer to the opinions of Bogberto and RaySalmon on this since they're living it.
Had he said something like "it seems to me that the two aren't exactly comparable", that'd be fine--and would leave his position open to counterpoints.
You won't find me questioning Don's view on anything related to 727s or UPS because he's got direct experience and thus credibility. But unless I'm mistaken, he has never been a military pilot or military student pilot, or a student/instructor at MAPD or a pilot at Mesa. Therefore, his *opinion* on these is of limited credibility.
Once upon a time, the training military pilots underwent was untouchable; it was the best there is. Today, I don't think that's entirely the case. Military training is still very good, but there are also very good civilian training programs out there. The military may have better facilities than most, and better/more advanced equipment, but when it comes right down to it, it's a matter of the quality of instruction and of the individual instructor(s) one learns from. Is a fresh-outta-PIT (USAF Pilot Instructor Training) better than EVERY civilian CFI out there? Highly unlikely. Is USAF academic training better in every respect than every civilian program out there? Also unlikely. I've read a number of the USAF SUPT texts and while they're all quite good, I wouldn't say that they're better than their civilian analogues. Example: AFMAN 11-217, Instrument Flight Procedures (available online: Vol 1, Vol 2) is quite good, but is it better than every civilian IFR text out there? Not necessarily.
The moral of the story is that USAF puts 250 hour pilots in the right seat of KC-10s, C-5s, and C-17s every day with no ill-effects. Maybe--just maybe--this works out at Mesa, too. Admittedly, I have no first-hand knowledge of the situation with MAPD grads at Mesa, but the anecdotal evidence I've seen on MesaLounge and other places is that most 300-hour MAPDers do just fine in the right seat of an RJ. I'll defer to the opinions of Bogberto and RaySalmon on this since they're living it.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If you've got stats saying that some of these 300-999 hour wonders were the cause of an accident, I'd like to see them.
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Your not going to see stats like that....If we/you are lucky, someone up there caught the fact that the LOC freq was dialed wrong, the BARO was set wrong for the DH, or that the anti ice should be in the ON position.
A few 1200 hour guys bust? Yea...and a lot of 1200 hour guys are really 500 hour guys with padded logbooks.
It's a pretty weak argument, that just because a <1000 hr pilot hasn't killed anyone/many people, that they are safe.
Hey! a nine year old has never had an auto accident. Let's lower the legal driving age to 9 years old.
If you've got stats saying that some of these 300-999 hour wonders were the cause of an accident, I'd like to see them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your not going to see stats like that....If we/you are lucky, someone up there caught the fact that the LOC freq was dialed wrong, the BARO was set wrong for the DH, or that the anti ice should be in the ON position.
A few 1200 hour guys bust? Yea...and a lot of 1200 hour guys are really 500 hour guys with padded logbooks.
It's a pretty weak argument, that just because a <1000 hr pilot hasn't killed anyone/many people, that they are safe.
Hey! a nine year old has never had an auto accident. Let's lower the legal driving age to 9 years old.
Mr_Creepy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
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Again...let's keep in mind that Mesa's standards for hiring MAPDer's don't equal those of the military....
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Don, unless I've missed something, I don't believe you've got experience with either--so really, this is little more than speculation on your part.
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But he's right - Mesa's standards are different (higher!) than the military. I understand anyone with a reasonable pulse and good health can be accepted in to the Army
[ QUOTE ]
Again...let's keep in mind that Mesa's standards for hiring MAPDer's don't equal those of the military....
[/ QUOTE ]
Don, unless I've missed something, I don't believe you've got experience with either--so really, this is little more than speculation on your part.
[/ QUOTE ]
But he's right - Mesa's standards are different (higher!) than the military. I understand anyone with a reasonable pulse and good health can be accepted in to the Army
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Aloft
"Don, unless I've missed something, I don't believe you've got experience with either--so really, this is little more than speculation on your part."
My experience with Mesa is limited to a friend who is a check airman, who does IOE with MAPDer's. He simply has told me some of them shouldn't be in the seat and that they ALL are highly inexperienced in the overall scheme of things when they are new. By the time they have a couple hundred hours in the seat...they don't need to be baby sat anymore.
I have no direct experience in the military, however, many of the folks I fly with day in and day out are ex-military pilots. I think military training, and the "weeding out" that's involved, results in a pilot capable of doing night traps on a carrier, in an F-18, at 300 hours.
It's my opinon that MAPD doesn't meet that standard. How many guys who can keep writing the checks get weeded out? I bet very few, though I have no direct knowledge.
So...what makes you any more of an expert on MAPD than I am?
"Don, unless I've missed something, I don't believe you've got experience with either--so really, this is little more than speculation on your part."
My experience with Mesa is limited to a friend who is a check airman, who does IOE with MAPDer's. He simply has told me some of them shouldn't be in the seat and that they ALL are highly inexperienced in the overall scheme of things when they are new. By the time they have a couple hundred hours in the seat...they don't need to be baby sat anymore.
I have no direct experience in the military, however, many of the folks I fly with day in and day out are ex-military pilots. I think military training, and the "weeding out" that's involved, results in a pilot capable of doing night traps on a carrier, in an F-18, at 300 hours.
It's my opinon that MAPD doesn't meet that standard. How many guys who can keep writing the checks get weeded out? I bet very few, though I have no direct knowledge.
So...what makes you any more of an expert on MAPD than I am?
Not that I have any military experience, but the two don't compare at all.
First you've got to pass OCS...
Out of (and a rough estimate, Daftarian can correct me if I'm wrong) perhaps every 100 people that apply for a pilot slot, perhaps 10 are selected. And out of that 10 probably 5 pass UPT. MAPD, ERAU, etc aren't spending $1.3 million to train a pilot in multi-million dollar aircraft so by the time a kid hits an F/A-18, it's significantly different than a fresh Riddle grad.
As a proud unapologetic civilian, I can certainly admit that a fresh UPT graduate and a fresh commercial multi-engine instrument ticketed pilot are absoutely worlds apart.
First you've got to pass OCS...
Out of (and a rough estimate, Daftarian can correct me if I'm wrong) perhaps every 100 people that apply for a pilot slot, perhaps 10 are selected. And out of that 10 probably 5 pass UPT. MAPD, ERAU, etc aren't spending $1.3 million to train a pilot in multi-million dollar aircraft so by the time a kid hits an F/A-18, it's significantly different than a fresh Riddle grad.
As a proud unapologetic civilian, I can certainly admit that a fresh UPT graduate and a fresh commercial multi-engine instrument ticketed pilot are absoutely worlds apart.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"and I've actually changed some of my views on flight training based on things you've said here"
What are you talking about? Did I talk you out of PFT or something?
"If you are in fact not capable, then the training program will do its job and weed you out."
One would hope so, but, trust me, it doesn't always work out this way. A guy could fly a great sim and meet minimum stardard on IOE. He still might not be up to par on doing a visual into DFW on a busy day. I really think the Capts have to do a lot of baby sitting for the first couple hundred hours. Is that unsafe?...not usually. Is it right to expose a Capt to that?....I don't think so. But it's not really my fight.
"If you've got stats saying that some of these 300-999 hour wonders were the cause of an accident, I'd like to see them."
Don't tempt me....
To say a low time pilot would "cause" an accident is always a stretch. Accidents are caused by a chain of events. If any link in that chain is broken, the accident is avoided. A 300 hour F/O is less likely to be as effective at "breaking the chain" than someone with more experience.
I'll never have to fly with one of these low time F/O's, as UPS will never have the need to employ one. For that, I've very grateful...
What are you talking about? Did I talk you out of PFT or something?
"If you are in fact not capable, then the training program will do its job and weed you out."
One would hope so, but, trust me, it doesn't always work out this way. A guy could fly a great sim and meet minimum stardard on IOE. He still might not be up to par on doing a visual into DFW on a busy day. I really think the Capts have to do a lot of baby sitting for the first couple hundred hours. Is that unsafe?...not usually. Is it right to expose a Capt to that?....I don't think so. But it's not really my fight.
"If you've got stats saying that some of these 300-999 hour wonders were the cause of an accident, I'd like to see them."
Don't tempt me....
To say a low time pilot would "cause" an accident is always a stretch. Accidents are caused by a chain of events. If any link in that chain is broken, the accident is avoided. A 300 hour F/O is less likely to be as effective at "breaking the chain" than someone with more experience.
I'll never have to fly with one of these low time F/O's, as UPS will never have the need to employ one. For that, I've very grateful...