Any Frontier guys here?

[Max Power]

IMO, I'd stick it out and get the jet CA position for the jet PIC as well. Are you eligible for the United program with Commutair? If so, go that route. In this upcoming hiring environment, IMO, I'd stay at a regional until called by DL/AA/UA.

Didn't get past the first round Hogan for the CPP. Also only a 2 year degree, which I've started turning the wheels on to make a bachelors. No degree makes the CPP a non-starter for me, but I could do two more years here (I think) at C5 to finish the degree. My plan right now is not to be at C5 any longer than 5 years total and I just started year three. But that's just a rough plan. The universe has scuttled most of my previous career plans, so nothing is set in stone. One of our most senior people, one of the few 15+ year guys here at C5, is in the first round of CPP pilots to go to UAL. He's a bit of a PITA to work with too, so there's always hope!!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Didn't get past the first round Hogan for the CPP. Also only a 2 year degree, which I've started turning the wheels on to make a bachelors. No degree makes the CPP a non-starter for me, but I could do two more years here (I think) at C5 to finish the degree. My plan right now is not to be at C5 any longer than 5 years total and I just started year three. But that's just a rough plan. The universe has scuttled most of my previous career plans, so nothing is set in stone. One of our most senior people, one of the few 15+ year guys here at C5, is in the first round of CPP pilots to go to UAL. He's a bit of a PITA to work with too, so there's always hope!!

What's wrong with being at C5 for year 5? IMO unless you have a terrible commute, I wouldn't leave C5 as a CA to start at a place like Frontier today. Not even Spirit (the time to go there was 2012-2015). With the hiring sprees of United, Delta, and AA coming up, if I was a regional CA, I'd stick it out until a call from the big 3 - and that call will come. And if you're from the PNW, you could look at Virgin/Alaska.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

so you think it's ok to scab? Got it.

I like how a conclusion is drawn without me having typed anything like that. No, it's not ok to scab. My statement points to the ones who did scab - and then didn't suffer any consequence as a result. The conclusion you should draw from my post above is not that I think it's okay to scab (it is not), but the fact that those who did scab got a great career in the end of it all without any repercussions. The union still took them as dues-paying members. It's a weakness of the union not to do something about scabs. I like how if you don't pay dues, there is an agency shop provision in ALPA contracts that can basically get you fired. But nothing for scabs.

 

[ufgators]

What's wrong with being at C5 for year 5? IMO unless you have a terrible commute, I wouldn't leave C5 as a CA to start at a place like Frontier today. Not even Spirit (the time to go there was 2012-2015). With the hiring sprees of United, Delta, and AA coming up, if I was a regional CA, I'd stick it out until a call from the big 3 - and that call will come. And if you're from the PNW, you could look at Virgin/Alaska.

Not saying whether he should go to Spirit or Frontier or not but I think the whole "and that call will come" shouldn't be given as advice. Yes, we have all heard of people getting hired hired at the legacies at mins/no job fair/no tpic etc... But how many of you have flown with quality guys, thousands of hours of not just total time but also tpic time at a 121, check airman, no failures, volunteer work, multiple job fairs, and still haven't heard anything? I'm betting that number FAR out numbers those you know who did get the call. And when I say "you" I'm not talking to you Cherokee since I think you are already at a major/lcc. I'm talking to those guys reading this that are still at the regionals (left or right seat) making less than what a true professional in the country should be making and have been trying for years already to break through to the majors...

Yes, on paper the retirements indicate lots of possible hiring in the future, but this is aviation - things can and often do change. Age 67? An economic downturn (remember we have been in a Bull market for the past 7+ years already...) that forces airlines to park planes, cancel orders, more mergers, etc

I don't mean to sound argumentative or a debby-downer by any means. I do believe that there is the possibility for tremendous opportunity in this career, heck, I just heard that the upgrade at DL for MD Capt in NYC get awarded to a 4 month guy! But, I think that nothing in this industry should be counted on as 100%. - just my $.02

 

[Snuggle]

IMO, I'd stick it out and get the jet CA position for the jet PIC as well. Are you eligible for the United program with Commutair? If so, go that route. In this upcoming hiring environment, IMO, I'd stay at a regional until called by DL/AA/UA.

PIC time is no longer what it used to be.
I say do what you feel is best for you to the OP, but I personally would try and move up from the regionals as soon as possible. From there you can continue to try to and on with another carrier if you desire. I know quite a few who have gone from right seat of a RJ to a LCC before getting on with a legacy without any CA time.

 

[Max Power]

PIC time is no longer what it used to be.
I say do what you feel is best for you to the OP, but I personally would try and move up from the regionals as soon as possible. From there you can continue to try to and on with another carrier if you desire. I know quite a few who have gone from right seat of a RJ to a LCC before getting on with a legacy without any CA time.

I understand that PIC time is slowly fading as a must have. My fear is that if I go now to anywhere else and the industry goes through a "correction ", not having 1000 TPIC will limit my opportunities.

 

[elmetal]

And until more than 1 guy per class at delta/united/American has zero pic, pic is still important.

 

[etflies]

I'd wager it's about being a well rounded candidate. The owner of this online living room has said as much. PIC time helps but it isn't the end all be all. Volunteer, if you can. Be involved in your union/training department, if you can. Network at every opportunity. Always be kind and professional, you never know who you're going to run across. FYI, my class had 10+ year regional Captains, 20+ year military retirees and an assortment of regional FO's. I can't speak for other airlines on a personal basis but we hire based on the overall candidate and not how much PIC has been logged.

Frontier isn't a top tier job right now. We have a ton of work to do if we even want to be included in that conversation. For some it isn't worth the sacrifice to get through the first year. For others the bet is on long term success and getting in early enough to achieve the MMMTO quality of life balance toward which we're all striving. It was the right decision for me given my circumstances. If the brass ring job with DL/UA/AA/AS comes through in the next few years, I'll have a decision to make. Otherwise I'm happy with where I am but I'm motivated to stand with this pilot group and fight for a competitive CBA.

Only the individual with the interview/job offer can determine their own fit for the job. Hopefully those of us flying the zoo around can shed some light on things and give enough information to help others make an informed decision. That said we are an open book so ask away.

 

[ian]

I like how a conclusion is drawn without me having typed anything like that. No, it's not ok to scab. My statement points to the ones who did scab - and then didn't suffer any consequence as a result. The conclusion you should draw from my post above is not that I think it's okay to scab (it is not), but the fact that those who did scab got a great career in the end of it all without any repercussions. The union still took them as dues-paying members. It's a weakness of the union not to do something about scabs. I like how if you don't pay dues, there is an agency shop provision in ALPA contracts that can basically get you fired. But nothing for scabs.

Bad advice. You wouldn't leave for frontier or spirit but you would for virgin? Cmon man. To the OP asking the question I'd go somewhere where the name on the paycheck owns the flying.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I got a call from Frontier last week about my application. After playing phone tag with them a bit, I spoke to HR and after a very professional and honest conversation, decided that it wasn't worth wasting everyone's time for me to continue along in the situation. I could handle the low pay for the first year. I could handle a training contract. But I couldn't handle both of those things. Might it be better than a regional, I have no idea, all I know is it would have been nearly a 40% by the time I look at what I will have made this year, coupled with the fact that I'm roughly 6 months from captain where I'm at. It just didn't make sense once I knew what the situation was.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

No one should be signing a Training contract in this market....Training contracts are usually a sign that they can't keep pilots for various reasons...

 

[Sandusky?]

For those of you working at Frontier. How did you afford to pay for your own housing during training? It seems almost impossible based off the pay to afford 6-8 weeks of housing.

 

[turbojet28]

For those of you working at Frontier. How did you afford to pay for your own housing during training? It seems almost impossible based off the pay to afford 6-8 weeks of housing.

Lots of people in my class stayed at crashpads. bradspads@hotmail.com is one of them. $250/month includes use of the adjacent parking lot shuttle to the airport. I drove my car out there to have during training and had my wife pick me up/drop me off on the weekends at my home airport.

I'm in my first year and the only complaints I have are the obvious ones that everyone else has stated, which is pretty much just the pay. It truly is a tough choice to give up a good chunk of pay to come here. No one knows if it will, in hindsight, be a good choice or not until after it's all said and done. If you agree with the low-cost business model, are okay with the thought of not flying for a "legacy", and want to bet that an industry-standard contract will be signed in a reasonable amount of time, I would take the chance. Assuming of course that you can make it through current-book first year pay and it works with you and your family logistically.

I was very impressed with the personnel in the training department. Ground school, sims, and IOE were all run very well, with absolutely no pressure added, other than what you naturally put on yourself when going through an initial. All instructors and check airmen were more than friendly and encouraging throughout the whole process. It was probably the most "laid-back" initial type rating course I have been through. There were no corners cut, but the material was presented well and in a friendly environment.

Overall, I'm happy to have come here. I left a good 91/135 jet outfit, and I certainly miss a lot, but I do feel there is a good future here. YMMV.

 

[Max Power]

No one should be signing a Training contract in this market....Training contracts are usually a sign that they can't keep pilots for various reasons...

This is one aspect of Frontier that I don't like. I'm sure it's partially to keep people from jumping ship after they get typed and some 'Bus time. Because if you can get into a legacy and make more money, why wouldn't you?

But everyone talks as though a job at DL/AA/UA are a given "if you just wait". For some, but not all of us, that might be true. I'd really like to fly for one of those carriers, but it's not a given. And really, I don't need to be a 777 transoceanic captain to make my life complete. If it happens, great, if not, so be it. I'm not against the ULCC business model, if the company takes care of their employees. And it's not only the money.

I did three years of indentured servitude for a 135 on demand operator. But it was also at a time when no one was hiring and I had less time under my belt with no PIC. I can see not wanting to put that training contract noose around your neck in the improving climate.

So, how is QOL at Frontier? Reserve? Commuting and the bases? For those who jumped from a regional or 135 outfit, was it worth it?

 

[upup89]

[QUOTE="Max Power, post: 2622871, member: 28094"
I did three years of indentured servitude for a 135 on demand operator. But it was
So, how is QOL at Frontier? Reserve? Commuting and the bases? For those who jumped from a regional or 135 outfit, was it worth it?[/QUOTE]

I left C5 for F9 quite awhile back. Haven't regretted it for a second and I had several more years invested in it than you. My worst month of reserve at Frontier was better than my best line at Commute. Commuting to our bases is dependent on where you live. You can expect to see a PHL or LAS pilot base in 2017. Perhaps even both. But our trips are very commutable on both ends for me which has been a welcome change.

The pay here is abominable. That being said our current contract is very soft time heavy. Something you do not get whatsoever at C5. It's not hard to credit 150-160 hours in a vacation month as a commuter and anything above 82 hours is paid at time and a quarter. The best thing is that 99% of the group here is steadfast in what our next contract should look like and I believe we will get it or get bought by another airline before then. Best of luck in your decision.

 

[etflies]

This is one aspect of Frontier that I don't like. I'm sure it's partially to keep people from jumping ship after they get typed and some 'Bus time. Because if you can get into a legacy and make more money, why wouldn't you?

But everyone talks as though a job at DL/AA/UA are a given "if you just wait". For some, but not all of us, that might be true. I'd really like to fly for one of those carriers, but it's not a given. And really, I don't need to be a 777 transoceanic captain to make my life complete. If it happens, great, if not, so be it. I'm not against the ULCC business model, if the company takes care of their employees. And it's not only the money.

I did three years of indentured servitude for a 135 on demand operator. But it was also at a time when no one was hiring and I had less time under my belt with no PIC. I can see not wanting to put that training contract noose around your neck in the improving climate.

So, how is QOL at Frontier? Reserve? Commuting and the bases? For those who jumped from a regional or 135 outfit, was it worth it?

Frontier pilot, DEN based. Been off reserve for a few months, it was hit or miss in terms of how much I was used but it sounds like reserves are being used more often than not. Short call is a 2hr call out. We have medium (10hr call out) and long call (12hr) reserve. Long call tends to go more senior and they get used first. You are allowed to aggressive bid trips in open time, if it fits on your schedule and nobody else tries to get it, you'll get the trip.

We have relief lines, which either are filled with trips dropped for training/vacation, etc or are reserve days but you'll get 14 days off if you are awarded a relief line but end up on reserve rather than 12.

Trips are a mixed bag. Plan on flying redeyes. Some are efficient and productive, some aren't even remotely so. It is tougher if you commute because a lot of good trips are not commutable on one or both ends. We do have a commuter clause, 2 flights to get you in postition 2hrs prior to your show time. We have a fair amount of flexibility when it comes to dropping and swapping trips around so you can usually make a halfway decent schedule for yourself if you try.

As far as time to hold a line, I was one of the very last line holders for November with about a year on property. There is no room to grow Denver because we gave up gates earlier this year so movement is predicated on upgrades and FO's senior to you transferring to other domiciles. Rumor has it we'll open a west coast base in 2017, PHX or LAS are the two most likely candidates, we are opening a PHL FA domicile so I suppose that isn't out of the running either. Either should create movement in DEN. For guys coming on now, we're due to grow quite a bit more in 2017 than we did in 2016 and the hiring forecast reflects as much so it could be a very different ballgame for new hires now.

As far as QOL, I left a regional and don't regret it at all. My worst month here was still better than my best at all regional. Just be prepared to stand with this pilot group and work toward a competitive CBA, because we lag WAY behind in compensation right now.

(***DISCLAIMER*** I mean work toward in every legal sense. I do not now, nor will I ever condone illegal job action)

I hope this helps, you're welcome to PM me with any questions you might have.