Answer to Phatty

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Since someone locked the thread I will answer Phatty's GENERIC question:

"How does one prepare for 135 training?"

Qualifications and disclaimer: I am Chief Pilot/Check Airman/Director of Training for www.airorlandocharter.com - but I have only taught about 20 ground schools and trained and checked only about 50 pilots for a small operator.

You will be instructed on part 135. It is vitally important that you are familiar with Instrument flight rules in Part 91! 135 is best viewed as a "template" that is placed over the 91 section. 91 doesn't go away. If there are two rules on a subject in almost all cases you go with the most restrictive (notable exceptions are usually indicated in your Ops Specs, such as alternate minimums, etc.)

You can bone up on 135 regs as well but they will be covered in class. You are expected to know the following "checklist items:"

1) basic aerodynamics
2) flight planning
3) radio procedures (IFR and flight following!)
4) IFR regulations and techniques
5) preflight/walkaround procedures (general, not aircraft specific)
6) weather planning and information sources
7) multi engine basics
8) NTSB 830 (accident reporting)
9) paperwork skills (this is important! 135 has been called "91 with a paper trail")

It wouldn't hurt to know the names of people like the Chief Pilot, Director of Operations, Director of Maintenance and other company officers either.

If I think of anything more I'll add it on.
 

AnotherWife

New Member
Thank you, John. Phatty's out flying, but I'll make sure he reads your post when he gets back. Great information on exactly what he was looking for. I appreciate the professionalism you've shown.

Doug, I've been mulling over what to say to you this morning. And whether to say anything at all because I realize when it comes right down to it, this is your game and you have the sole privilege of taking your marbles and going home when you don't like something. And that's what I feel you did by locking the Ameriflight thread. And I'm very disappointed in you. I realize what I'm about to say will put me on the chopping block with your minions, but I don't care. I can take it. And what I have to say needs to be said.

You see, you didn't seem to mind when Phatty was getting pummeled about PFT in general. Which, I'll remind you again, was NOT his original question. The Ameriflight thread was like the "Who's in Sanford" thread because instead of answering the question asked many seemed free to preach to advance their own agenda. That's fine. But when someone doesn't take your advice . . . well . . . get over it.

As a lawyer, my clients pay me to give them advice. Guess what? Sometimes they don't take it. It took me maturing in my profession to understand that just because one of my clients chooses not to follow my advice it doesn't mean they think what I told them is wrong. Or stupid. Or any of the other adjectives that have been used against Phatty and me over the past few days. My clients take the advice I give them and then make their own decision about the course of action they feel best about. Get it? What's right for them, not what's right for me. Because it's not about me. And in this instance it's not about you.

So, after all the mudslinging and angry responses in the Ameriflight thread people finally settled down and Phatty was beginning to get real advice on his original question. As DE727UPS so aptly put it, too bad it took 250 posts to get there. But the point is it did get there and then **wham** you shut the door. Which leaves me with the impression you didn't like that Phatty was finally getting real suggestions on Part 135 training. And that's sad.

Now I could turn on my heel and stomp away from this site in frustration, but I won't. I've been on here for more than this one, awful thread and I know there's lots of good information to be gleaned from your users. And for the most part I think the users on this site are pretty terrific.

Now that I've said my peace, I hope everyone has a lovely day. Fly safe.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
"Which leaves me with the impression you didn't like that Phatty was finally getting real suggestions on Part 135 training. And that's sad."

Knowing Doug and seeing how he operates HIS site, I don't think this statement could be further from the truth.

Look...Phatty can take care of himself and I thought he did fine. You should have seen the things people said to Citationkid when he first got here. Much to his credit, he stuck around and I'm sure gets a lot out of this site. Citation kid said some things that seemed very normal for a 15 year old to say but came across poorly and he got flamed. Phatty's question, the way he said it, came across poorly...you might disagree with that but I and most the other folks around around here would say so. So you live and learn....

Honestly, I didn't understand what Phatty was asking until towards the end. He could have been more specific in his first question.

PFT (not Amflight, but Gulfstream in my book) is a highly emotionally charged topic....as are strikes and scabs. I'm happy it is and will gladly debate it with anyone pro-PFT in what I consider a calm manner (might not always meet your "niceness standard"). I also will NEVER tire in my defense of my profession against those who want to bring it down, as I believe PFT does.

I was a little disappointed that the thread closed for different reasons but it also makes sense in some ways. I'm sure Doug will explain his reasoning on this thread. You are free to start a new post, as you did, and express your concerns. So we'll start all over again.

Try to not take the name calling so personal...we're just a bunch of guys. Maybe you should call a few people names...it can be fun. (just not to Doug)...
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
I've been in the forum biz for quite a while and the larger a 'hot topic' gets in terms of pages and pages of information, you start to attract a broader element that log into the forums to do battle once again.

The program being discussed to pilots is almost similar (not to the procedure, but to the clear division amongst people) to the abortion debate. The mere mention of it is going to galvanize people support either side of the issue and it's World War III. That usually doesn't happen because people know I'm not going to have that on my website.

No offense to their webmaster, but this will not become an airliners.net or flightinfo.com -- believe it or not, that was a very civil, and short debate. I've seen and been involved with much worse in other arenas.

I've seen it a billion trillion times and the discussion had run the course and even began to metamorphasize into a thread about personal hygeine (still trying to figure that one out).

Long threads get longer because it works like this:

-There are elements of people that are entertained by seeing how long a thread can get.

-There are also elements of people with easily bruised egos and it's normally a lot easier (albeit highly inflammatory) to call someone a 'pud' with a qwerty keyboard when they know darned sure they'd be a lot more respectful in person.

-People are too sensitive and delicate. Of course I'm assuming that the 12 unread private messages that I've recieved in the last 10 hours are what I think they are (haven't read 'em yet!
).

I'm a moderator of the website. Actually more of an administrator, but I've got to keep the 'big picture' in my head, even in discussions I'm a part of. If the topic is going absolutely nowhere but downstairs, I've got to make an editorial decision on when it's run it's course.

Toes always get stepped on, but arguably, this is the only place on the aviation internet that you're going to get such a high percentage of people that are willing to assist you. As an experiment, log on to one of the aforementioned (kant spel 2day) websites with the same post about the Ameriflight program and report back to us the reaction.

I'll bet you a Ruth's Chris steak dinner within two days you'll have the mother of all expletive-laden vicious flame festivals of all time.

The topic will be revisited, but I think everyone agrees it needed a rest for the time being.

For every one person that thinks I'm an enormous butthole for closing the thread, there are probably five that are breathing a sigh of relief that the dead horse isn't being beaten any more.

If I've stepped on some toes, sorry, but I'm willing to be on everyone's "Bad Doug" for the continued health of the website.

Edit: And to answer your question, no I wasn't upset that someone was answering questions about part 135 and it's extraordinarily bewildering to me why you'd think so
 

Kristie

Mama Bear....
Staff member
well, i've noticed that if the topic gets longer than a page, the original question by the poster is forgotten and the topic goes on a completely different route...so maybe that's why/how it got off track some?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Like that damned "...this is the song that never ends..." that everyone and their uncle knows but me!

Besides, it was a dead topic. Nothing but sniping, circular arguments and quite frankly starting to attract a large bevvy of @yahoo and @hotmail accounts which normally means the mercenaries are starting to show up to do battle.

Honestly, once everyone cools down a few hundred degrees celcius, we can revisit it, but it's on hiatus now.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]

Doug, I've been mulling over what to say to you this morning. And whether to say anything at all because I realize when it comes right down to it, this is your game and you have the sole privilege of taking your marbles and going home when you don't like something. And that's what I feel you did by locking the Ameriflight thread. And I'm very disappointed in you. I realize what I'm about to say will put me on the chopping block with your minions, but I don't care. I can take it. And what I have to say needs to be said.

[/ QUOTE ]

No chopping block with minions, that's not how business should be done, nor how it'll be done. The Ameriflight thread was going nowhere, for a variety of reasons. Having it restarted as "Answer to Phatty's question", is going well, IMO; a fresh start, if you will. Whatever Ameriflight's program is, PFE/PFT/PF-whatever, the subject of PFT was sparked, and the flow of the debate took off in that direction, right or wrong. That being said, I'll address the personal attack portion next.......

[ QUOTE ]

You see, you didn't seem to mind when Phatty was getting pummeled about PFT in general. Which, I'll remind you again, was NOT his original question. The Ameriflight thread was like the "Who's in Sanford" thread because instead of answering the question asked many seemed free to preach to advance their own agenda. That's fine. But when someone doesn't take your advice . . . well . . . get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I stated, the PFT subject is the direction the conversation began to take, due to it being (intentionally or unintentionally) mentioned in the initial post. Threads ebb and flow apart from the first thread, and even away from the initial meaning; taking a life of their own sometimes, so to speak. Realizing now that discussion of PFT wasn't intended; the discussion became one of pro/con of PFT. Fine. But what was unacceptable was the personal attacks, regardless of where they came from. They had NO bearing on the discussion in any way, and the guilty know who they are.

On advice, and I'm not referring to any one person in the site, just an overall observation. Many times, people come and ask a question/want advice on something, but only want answers they want to hear, or answers that support what they're doing. Then, when they get an answer they don't like or don't want to hear, they get bothered by that. Again, I'm not referring to specifics, just making a general observation. Second, when advice is asked of industry professionals (referring to the PFT) about particulars of their industry, they generally know what they're talking about. One may not like the info they provide, and that's fine, but the point is, they're on the scene and know the lowdown. If their advice isn't going to be given the due regard it deserves, then why ask their advice in the first place? If one's mind is already made up, why fish for qualifiers? It's the same thing I deal with here when on scene of a battle situation: I request from the control agencies this and that kind of support, only to get overridden by some command post weenie 800 miles from the battle area who thinks he has more SA on the ground battle in progress than the guys on the scene.

[ QUOTE ]

As a lawyer, my clients pay me to give them advice. Guess what? Sometimes they don't take it. It took me maturing in my profession to understand that just because one of my clients chooses not to follow my advice it doesn't mean they think what I told them is wrong. Or stupid. Or any of the other adjectives that have been used against Phatty and me over the past few days. My clients take the advice I give them and then make their own decision about the course of action they feel best about. Get it? What's right for them, not what's right for me. Because it's not about me. And in this instance it's not about you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Addressed above. Again, I reiterate. Personal attacks are wrong and unprofessional. Referring to the PFT issue (and the PFT issue only), the general feel for the subject was given by a number of people, right or wrong as a feeling, for better or for worse. They're on scene far closer than I am, so if they say that's the general feel, who am I to counter? I'm not there, I don't know any better. I know this wasn't the initial topic, I'm merely addressing the follow-on issue that occurred.

[ QUOTE ]

So, after all the mudslinging and angry responses in the Ameriflight thread people finally settled down and Phatty was beginning to get real advice on his original question. As DE727UPS so aptly put it, too bad it took 250 posts to get there. But the point is it did get there and then **wham** you shut the door. Which leaves me with the impression you didn't like that Phatty was finally getting real suggestions on Part 135 training. And that's sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Phatty's question is being answered in the fresh thread, which will hopefully remain untainted and cover the intended topic, versus the perceived topic; now that they're cleared up. A door may have been shut, but another one of equal dimensions was opened.

[ QUOTE ]

Now I could turn on my heel and stomp away from this site in frustration, but I won't. I've been on here for more than this one, awful thread and I know there's lots of good information to be gleaned from your users. And for the most part I think the users on this site are pretty terrific.

Now that I've said my peace, I hope everyone has a lovely day. Fly safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

For whatever reason, the thread took the subject turn it did. The personal attacks were wrong and the guilty know it. These have all been addressed, and the original topic is back in hand.

For my personal take on PFT (not part of the subject at hand) is simply this: the "Will Fly For Food" T-shirts that were originally meant as a joke in the early '90s, are now being taken very seriously by many airline management types. Unfortunately, it's being accepted by too many pilots too.

So who IS in Sanford?
 

Cosmo1999

Well-Known Member
boy ive sure missed a lot it looks like in the last couple days... I read the ameriflight thread and to me I would actually say that it was mild compared to some of those other message boards out there.. Now that doesnt excuse the name calling, flaming, whatever else but I would say in the end it still was a lot more civil than a flight info discussion on the matter. I would say PFJ PFT or whatever you wanna call it is kind of like a cockroach. Its ugly, its nasty but it still lives everywhere. You may not always be able to see it but that doesnt mean its not there somewhere. No matter what you do or how hard you try to exterminate it its always there. You can sometimes get it to go away for a while but it always tends to resurface, especially in the bad times. Unfortunately there is always someone with deep pockets or lots of loans that can go out and take away a job that should be a paid position.. Like ive heard Doug say before everyone wants to be a airline pilot but not everyone wants to become one. I disagree with the practice big time. I am even opposed to the guys that fly traffic watch for free in this area because there were so many guys waiting just to get hours that the guy told everyone traffic watch is now a volunteer job... Despite that it used to be a paid position somewhere between $7 and $10 there were still so many people desperate for hours that they do it for free. As long as there are people who love flying so much they would do it for nothing and as long as there are buisnessmen out there who exploit the fact that people love flying so much the practice will always exist. Its the exact same thing they do to people in other countries. Hell I hardly ever even talk to a customer service rep that speaks english as a first language anymore.. I dont even want to talk about trying to troubleshoot my computer with someone from another country who i couldnt even understand... Thats what its come to in america though. Clever owners and CEOs always find ways to outsource and find cheaper labor. As long as there are pilots willing to do it there will always be companies willing to cash that check. They will be just as willing to kick your butt out to the curb after your 250 or 500 hours are up because there is someone else right behind you ready to pay to take your job from you. Live by PFT die by PFT.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
I like the cockroach analogy. We have a saying here in FL: There really is only one cockroach in FL but he is really fast! ... and if you kill him he just comes back bigger!
 

AnotherWife

New Member
MikeD, you are right. Another door opened. The responses by everyone above to my frustration exhibited on this thread really show what true professionals you all are.

Doug, thank you for explaining your decision to me today in terms I better understand. I'll trust you on those other sites -- I've had enough of PFwhatever. But tell 'ya what, we'll buy you that Ruth's Chris steak dinner when Phatty gets a job. How's your schedule look for the next 1-5 years -- we can't really pin down when we can make good.


Kristie, this one was dead ON page one. So after that I guess it was more a rotton, decaying corpse. (Hope no one's eating dinner while reading this
)

Now back to the reason why everyone's here. . . . about that 135 training prep . . . ?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-Known Member
MikeD, you're a hell of a guy! You're on the other side of the planet, risking your ass fighting for us, and you still manage to sign on here and keep us all in line! Definitely someone for a lot of us on here to look up to!


Anyways, I'd like to apologize to Phatty, and AnotherWife, and anyone else if anything that I posted was offensive or unprofessional. Like many others, its a topic that I feel strongly about and its easy to get carried away arguing my point. In any case, while I don't agree with that route, I still wish you luck. I can't, in good conscience, sit here and wish bad things on a fellow pilot.
 

aloft

New Member
[ QUOTE ]
For my personal take on PFT (not part of the subject at hand) is simply this: the "Will Fly For Food" T-shirts that were originally meant as a joke in the early '90s, are now being taken very seriously by many airline management types. Unfortunately, it's being accepted by too many pilots too.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not just airline management types...it's corporate management everywhere. But hey, at least they can't move pilot jobs to India...

[ QUOTE ]
"The problem is not a lack of highly educated workers," said Scott Kirwin, founder of the Information Technology Professionals Association of America. "The problem is a lack of highly educated workers willing to work for the minimum wage or lower in the U.S."

[/ QUOTE ]
 

AnotherWife

New Member
Thanks, ESF. No hard feelings about any of it toward you or anyone else. Honest.


MikeD does have a very balanced view, and has a way of putting things in good perspective. Stay safe over there.

Catch y'all later.
 

pyrrhonist

New Member
The horse is not just dead, nor is it dust. It's vapor! But thanks for heeding my recommendation to end the thread. Unfortunately, the Ameriflight thread has jumped the tracks to the 'Answer to Phatty' thread. Good grief.
By the way, there are plenty of people on this forum who need a lesson in sentence construction, word usage, and spelling. Additionally, am I alone in recognizing that a number of discussions on this website are filled with unprofessional language. Knock, knock! Hello kettle, it's pot.

"Profanity is the attempt of a Lazy and Feeble mind to express itself Forcefully"
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
MikeD's the MAN. Moderating the forums during the day, running combat air patrol at night in the A-10 in Iraq, and still has a chance to help answer questions on the website.

Holy cow.
 

pilot602

If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
The horse is not just dead, nor is it dust.
Is this sentence a question or a declaration or even complete? By using "not just" you are alluding to something that you never develop. You are also using a double negative in the "sentence" by using "not" then "nor." Avoiding double negatives is basic grammar.

It's vapor! But thanks for heeding my recommendation to end the thread.
An action that takes place six pages after you make your "recommendation" is not an action that was taken due to your recommendation. That's like placing a rock near your mailbox and claiming it keeps tigers away.

Unfortunately, the Ameriflight thread has jumped the tracks to the 'Answer to Phatty' thread.
Why is it unfortunate? Simply declaring a feeling does not, in and of itself, explain why the feeling is valid.

Good grief.By the way, there are plenty of people on this forum who need a lesson in sentence construction, word usage, and spelling.
The comma before the and is not necessary - in strictly formal setting it's acceptable. In everyday langauge - as well as in journalism, i.e. AP Style - it's not needed and in fact discouraged.

Additionally, am I alone in recognizing that a number of discussions on this website are filled with unprofessional language.
Again, is this a question? The phrase "am I' is the begenning of a question yet you end the sentence with a period, not a question mark. Not to mention the word "additionally" serves absoutley no purpose other than as a poor excuse as transition.

Knock, knock! Hello kettle, it's pot.
Cliches are best avoided in persuasive writing.

"Profanity is the attempt of a Lazy and Feeble mind to express itself Forcefully"
So is random capitalization and the lack of proper puncuation.



[/ QUOTE ]

Before you call the grammar police you should proofread your own posts.
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
"Profanity is the attempt of a Lazy and Feeble mind to express itself Forcefully"

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know where you're from, but lot's of people (not just brotha's) have profanity in there everyday vocabulary. Nothing is meant behind it and calling a mind lazy and feeble is for another post.
 

Pfly

Well-Known Member
Quote:


[/ QUOTE ] Before you call the grammar police you should proofread your own posts.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL!!!
 
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