Another "What Would YOU Do?"

ready2fly

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

Here's an interesting question - CFI to CFI's :

Say you have a private pilot student who is just getting ready to solo. Say then that he is scheduled to fly with another instructor on a day that you are off. Say THEN that you instructed your student to do ONLY touch and goes with said other instructor.

SAY THEN that the other instructor - instead of doing touch and goes..... took your PPL candidate into actual conditions on an IFR flight plan and.....SHOT APPROACHES!!!!

A. How would you feel?
B. How would you handle it?

I'm going to have a chat with the other instructor when I see him again. THEN I'm considering talking to our Chief Pilot about having that instructor reimburse the student for wasting his time by working on his IFR currency on a PPL candidates dime.

Just my thoughts.

Yours?
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

I'd definately talk to the other instructor. If the weather wasn't good enough to do touch & gos (since the students apparently needs work on their landings), then the lesson probably should have been scrubbed. Not sure about going to the Chief Pilot, but I think it might need to be mentioned. Seriously unprofessional on the part of the other instructor. Sounds like he saw an opportunity to get some actual time in the logbook and took advantage of your student.....
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

kind of shady, but did you talk with the other CFI about what you wanted to have acomplished during his time with YOUR student??? its not the best idea to relay messages through your student to another CFI, or anyone really. but in any event, what that other CFI did was ultra-shady. i'd be pretty pissed off about it, i hate seeing people get taken advantage of and their money/time wasted.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

I would be pissed. I'd also make sure I talked to the other instructor about it.

I have gotten in the habit of talking to other instructors when I schedule my students with them. I usually just brief them of where the student is and what I want them to work on with the student.

What has your student said about this?
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

I understand that you're upset, I probably would be too.

But, is this student training under pt. 61 or 141? If it is part 61, thank the CFI for getting part of the 3 hours of instrument time out of the way. Then kick their butt for not listening to you.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

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but did you talk with the other CFI about what you wanted to have acomplished during his time with YOUR student???

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I agree though, not very cool of that other CFI.

Here's an idea that works pretty well. My old employer wouldn't let us schedule our students with another instructor until the three of us got together (even if just for a couple of minutes) for a quick brief on where the student was at, and what they should be doing. Of course it might not always be possible, but it really helps eliminate any confusion, and shows the student that everyone as a whole is interested in their progress.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

I offer to take post solo students into IMC to give them a feel for it. While most take the opportunity when offered, it is just an offer. Personally, I'd never take a presolo student into IMC - there's just too much they're trying to digest already!
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

The other week I had to cancel a lesson with a student. It was his second flight. Instead I asked a new CFI to take him up for some basic climbs turns and descents. He said, "I'll take him up for a few spins in the pattern." I said no! He's only got 1 hour, he doens't know what he's doing. I come back, and asked the student what they did, he said pattern!
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Morons!

Another time about a year ago, there was a CFI that would always try and steal my students away. It would never work. Finally one day he slicked his way into taking one of my students up bcuz I wasn't available. I come back three or four days later, he's flown with him 3 times. He would also try and take the students that paid me well. I had one guy always want to fly far distances for dinner and to do a lot of x-c's. He would always take care of the bill, pay me for all my time, and never bat an eye. That same CFI tried his hardest to take him up. When the guy asked if he could ride with him on my days I wasn't available I told him no because I'd rather he stick to one instructor. I was ready for him to still fly with him and if he did, I would have dropped him as a student.

Don't worry, these guys are scum bags and these things catch up to them. One day, they will try to apply for a job somewhere and run into you! Guess what, he's no getting a good recommendation or good word! The aviation community is smaller than you know.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

I did a few instrument flights pre-solo and before getting my PPL. I'm so glad I did them too. It really increased my confidence in the air traffic control system, and filled me in on what was to come. Now, the difference with me being: 1) I already had a pretty good knowledge of IFR prior to getting my private and 2) was looking at aviation as a career.

So, I think it can be EXTREMELY valuable to certain students based on their goals. Don't rule it out entirely.

But yeah, sounds to be that he milked that student for all he was worth
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Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

Thanks everyone for you replies.

I haven't had the chance to speak face-to-face (or otherwise - I won't do it over the phone) with the other instructor yet. He bolted before I could talk to him yesterday. He's not one to hang around the FBO when he doesn't have students. But I will talk to him.

As for the question of whether or not I relayed what I wanted to the other instructor? Yes.

My student has flown with this guy three times now. The first time was on the students SECOND lesson and this same instructor (who has yet to produce or follow a syllabus that I've seen), took him out to do ground-reference maneuvers, stalls....etc.

That time, it was my fault for not relaying what I wanted.

From that day forward, I told this guy what I wanted him to do when he was to fly with my student.

Last Friday, I told him "Hey (instructor), looks like (student) is scheduled with you again on Monday. We're getting close to solo. Just stay in the pattern and work on landings. He's getting close and really needs the work."

I then told my student (who is a gentleman in his late 40's - no kid here) to remind the other instructor of what they were to do.

So, you can understand my bewilderment when my student told me about what transpired.

As for "thanking the other CFI for getting my student more instrument time" : That's not his job. That's not what I asked him to do. My student is well on his way to the 3 hours of hood without this little stunt.....and that's the way I see it... it was a stunt.

Thanks again for your comments. Keep them coming. I'll be checking in and will keep you all posted. Probably wont' be speaking to the Chief Pilot unless the guy acts like an ass.... but, I'll let you know.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

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As for "thanking the other CFI for getting my student more instrument time" : That's not his job. That's not what I asked him to do.

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Agreed.

A lack of communication has caused much more serious repercussions, but nonetheless can be pointed out that it was in fact a disregard for respecting your authority.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

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He's not one to hang around the FBO when he doesn't have students. But I will talk to him.

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So, how does he get students in the first place? Sounds to me like someone who isn't all that serious about instructing. If he bolted before you got a chance to say something to him, my money's on the fact that he KNEW what he was doing and is avoiding the situation.

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My student is well on his way to the 3 hours of hood without this little stunt.....and that's the way I see it... it was a stunt.

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3 hours hood time is pretty easy to get. Just do a little bit under the hood flying back from the practice area after several lessons and it's there before ya know it. I'm thinking this instructor's instrument currency was running out, and he saw an opportunity to get some approaches out of the way on someone else's dime.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

Kel, you're absolutely correct = this is his 3rd instructing gig and he's mentioned to another instructor before that he doesn't "give a s_ _ t about instructing, it's just a way to build hours."

So, how does he get students? He got them handed to him by me, by the other instructors, etc....when our schedules were full. He shows up, does his lesson, then leaves.

As for whether or not he knew he did something wrong: no, probably not. I know the guy. He doesn't think that way....and he probably won't give a rats turd what I say to him tomorrow (if he's there).

But, I do have to say my piece and then let it go, so that it won't happen again.

I'm also going to suggest to my studen that from this point forward, he either flies with me or with the other guy, but not both.
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

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this is his 3rd instructing gig and he's mentioned to another instructor before that he doesn't "give a s_ _ t about instructing, it's just a way to build hours."


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These are the people that p1ss me off. Need to have a little wall-to-wall coundeling with this idiot.

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So, how does he get students? He got them handed to him by me, by the other instructors, etc....when our schedules were full. He shows up, does his lesson, then leaves.


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I've dealt with people at the flight school like that. "Lloyd's gonna be full soon. If I just hang out long enough, he'll give me some students".
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Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

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I've dealt with people at the flight school like that. "Lloyd's gonna be full soon. If I just hang out long enough, he'll give me some students".

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Hold out for about another two months, and I think I might know of one instructor willing to bust his butt that'll be looking for a job......
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Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

[ QUOTE ]
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this is his 3rd instructing gig and he's mentioned to another instructor before that he doesn't "give a s_ _ t about instructing, it's just a way to build hours."


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These are the people that p1ss me off. Need to have a little wall-to-wall coundeling with this idiot.

:

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However, I would bet there's a good number of CFIs that feel that way. I'd think it'd be naive to think otherwise. Not saying it's right by any means, but I think that way of thinking is far more widespread than just the one guy here.

Copy on the wall-to-wall...........
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Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

UPDATE:

Finally had a chance to sit down with this clown and sort this thing out.

Me: I understand you took (PPL student) up in actual last Monday and shot approaches?

Him: Yeah.

Me: May I ask why?

Him: I..uhh...saw he was shy on hood time (he had about 2.5 at the time) so I though he needed some actual.

Me: Look, I really do appreciate you flying with my student, but a solo candidate is nowhere near ready to experience actual and, frankly, I thought your decision to fly with 900' ceilings set a poor example of Aeronautical Decision Making.

Him: How so?

Me: Well, frankly, he had no idea where he was and even after I looked in his log book and told him "you went to LAL and VDF", he said "Okay, if you say so...it was all Greek to me... I was totally lost." I would have taught him to make the no-go decision.

Him: Oh.

Me: Bottom line, (instructor), don't take any more of my PPL students up in actual to shoot approaches. That's your decision what you do with your students, but I have to say that it looked highly suspect that you basically needed to keep your currency up and did so on my students dime.

Him: So?

Me: Just don't do it again.

Nice, huh?
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

There's lots of guys out there willing to stab you in the back to steal a student. It's also important to choose wisely when you send a student up with another CFI. There's no need for a pre-solo student to be tooling around in the clouds.

But...
If you do get the chance to take your PPL students up in the clouds it's not a bad idea. I'm not saying 900' ceilings solid IMC, but a student who is close to their checkride can really benefit from some time in the clouds. I remember my first time in the clouds and I couldn't tell my feet from my head, it was a real eye opener!
 
Re: Another \"What Would YOU Do?\"

I agree with that. Gives them a healthy respect for continuing into IMC without knowing what they're doing. That being said, I also think that a pre-solo student is nowhere near that point yet. The other CFI would wind up in my own personal "penalty box."
 
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