Another new program post

A business is a collection of people. People have a conscience...a sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives. I hope ATP does the right thing. I've recommended a multitude of friends, acquaintences, and passers-by to them because they've always been straight shooters. I don't agree with the way they pay or treat their instructors, but it seems their instructors know the road before taking it, and it's a cost savings to us, the customers. When I hear about schemes that don't make sense, expect in lining corporate pockets at the expense of their workers and customers, then it's time to speak up and pull down the "it's a business" camouflage that people use to hide their conscience.

Let's see how it irons out. Some very good arguments both ways. I hope it's all a rumor mill gone awry and there is a "better" program coming to meet the needs of the industry.

Thanks for your support.
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Let's see how it irons out. Some very good arguments both ways. I hope it's all a rumor mill gone awry and there is a "better" program coming to meet the needs of the industry.

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agreed.
 
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Seems official. Jim Koziarski offered it up to somebody over the phone according to the posting individual. The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors

ATP used to be trusted. Today, however, I'm skeptical.

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Well, I don't know just which "grapevine" you've been listening to, but you obviously know very little about the RJ program and our instructors' participation in it. What "finders fee" might you be talking about? As it stands right now, instructors with sufficient TT are invited to take the course, culminating in a checkride with SOME regional, (not necessarily ExpressJet by the way) and when interviewed or hired, you can then pay for the program. This is not a "finders fee", it is a deferred payment on the program to help the instructors out, and no one is forced to participate.
 
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The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors



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Nope....I was hired at XJT like everyone else, and definitely did not and would not pay any fee to ATP.

Sounds like your grapevine is making sour grapes.
 
As it stands right now, instructors with sufficient TT are invited to take the course, culminating in a checkride with SOME regional, (not necessarily ExpressJet by the way) and when interviewed or hired, you can then pay for the program. This is not a "finders fee", it is a deferred payment on the program to help the instructors out, and no one is forced to participate.

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Brilliant! "Deferred payment" instead of "finders fee". An eloquent choice of words.

"Ice Ice BABY"

Yo ATP, Let's kick it!
Ice Ice Baby
Ice Ice Baby
All right stop
Collaborate and listen
ATP is back with my brand new flight program invention
Somemoney grabs ahold of me tightly
Then I flow like a Seminole daily and nightly
Will it ever stop?
Yo-- I don't know
Turn off the lights and I'll glow
To the extreme I fly a Frasca like a vandal
Light up a runway and wax a landing like a candle
Oink
Bum rush the speaker that booms
I'm killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom
Deadly, when I play a dope melody
Anything less than free money is a felony
Love it or leave it
You better gain way
You better take our new program
The kid don't have to pay
If there was a problem
Yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it
Ice Ice Baby New Program
Ice Ice Baby Deferred Payment
Ice Ice Baby You don't need it
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

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Okie.... not to start a flame war here or anything, but a) this is REALLY bothering you and b) you have a whole lot of free time.
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The last proposal version of the program I saw stressed in several places that this program was not for everyone and the policy of ATP was to reccomend the flight instructor path. However, as a company, ATP was losing business to other flight schools that did offer this direct track sort of program. This program was put in place to be able to compete with the other flight schools. I think that hope is that when people get started in the career pilot program they will see how potentially rewarding flight instructing is and go with the instructor track. My .02.


Ethan
 
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Brilliant! "Deferred payment" instead of "finders fee". An eloquent choice of words.

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Dude, honestly, are you serious?? If a student comes in off the street and pays ATP to take the RJ course (which, by the way, is the same exact course ATP's instructors take at the same exact cost) would you consider that payment a "finders fee"? Is the tuition cost of a four year degree at Embry Riddle a finders fee? How about the cost of the programs at Pan Am or Sierra? They have affiliations with certain airlines that benefit their instructors. Are the cost of their programs a "finders fee"? Just because the company gives their instructors a break and allows them to pay for the course later, I can't for the life of me figure out how you turned that into a "finders fee"!! Just exactly what is it about ATP that bothers you? Why not just drop the righteous BS and poor attempts at paraphrasing a washed up, flash in the pan rapper from 15 years ago and tell us all what's bothering you? We're all here for ya man. Just let it out!!
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You have too much time on your hands sir.
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When you participate in the RJ course you are purchasing and being provided a good/service. A "finder's fee" would be if you paid ATP $XXXX amount to go out and schedule a job interview for you.
 
Dead on lruppert. Why do you think these places are in existence? To give quality flight training at a reasonable cost? NOPE. Money. It's the root of all evil, right?

People fall for those marketing bits and they get the 68k in the their pocket....and NO instructor ratings? WOW. They wonder why I picked Ari-Ben.
 
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WOW. They wonder why I picked Ari-Ben.

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Probably because you are affraid to fly outside of Florida... but that is for another discussion....

Folks, not everyone wants to be a flight instructor, more importantly, not everyone can be a flight instructor! For that, they have developed a program for those who are able to quickly (6 months) build their flight time in well maintained, safe aircraft.

No one is saying you have to do this program. It is the nature of any business to offer variety to potential clients. Would you go to M*Donalds if all you could get was a Big M@c? Probably not, they are changing with the times. The are constantly altering/ adding/ changing programs. If this isn't something that gets a very good response I am sure it will be altered in some way.

If you look at it... the regionals are hiring at 800/100, 600/100 depending on which carrier... you get to fly all of your time in six months take a RJ course 50hrs (so I hear) and an FMS course which includes a checkride with someone from a regional.... where is the problem...I don't see it!
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Don't bash over pure speculation... wait for the program details to come about and the say what you must...

I have been to two opposite sides of the flight training school spectrum from ATA to ATP... I can tell you they are not out to take your money...

*$.02*
 
Once the "$10k to avoid becoming an ATP flight instructor" program is in full swing, let's re-visit this discussion.

......phone call to ATP's 800 line....(once it's possible to avoid becoming an ATP flight instructor).........

>ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring

>"Thanks for calling ATP, this is Jim"

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edmondfitzgerald,

You and everyone else are making some valid points, and since I stil work for ATP I won't endorse or put down a program, even if I don't agree with it. I think ATP is looking at some of the long-standing bridge programs that schools like ERAU, UND, UVSC, Purdue etc have with the regionals and are trying to compete. Is this new program a move in the right direction? Maybe not, but a good first attempt.

As for the CRJ program being made available under a "deferred payment" program, I've heard nothing of this. I know some instructors are being offered the program at a discount, but Pfly's post is the first I have heard. I did the CRJ program myself last month and highly recommend it.

Overall I still find it odd that you just joined JC and immediately started slamming ATP and asking technical questions about the EMB-145. Are you a former student, instructor, or XJT new hire? I'd like to know more about you, to better understand your position and comments. My guess is you are:

1. A former student that didn't get hired;
2. A CFI for another flight school;
3. Someone with infinite time on their hands (start studying for interviews)
4. That guy in my interview group at XJT that didn't get hired and took every opportunity to tell me how superior his school is to ATP.

Not trying to be rude, but your posts are some of the best flamebait I've seen.
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hey all. haven't posted in a while but i went to atp and thought i'd chime in on this. i really don't see what the problem is with this new program other than it's a waste of money. let's face it, nobody that wants to fly for an airline someday wants to be a flight instructor first and "pay their dues". we want the job were unqualifed for right now! unfortunatley it doesn't work that way. i know lots of people who just went out and bought a 172 or an apache and just flew the heck out them to build time. the problem with this program is that most regionals, including expressjet, won't hire you without a current flying job. when i say flying job, i mean a full time, not part time. many, including expressjet, will not hire you unless you have x amount of multi time in last six months. so unless they using seamanholes in this program these guys won't meet that req. either. i think they could make this new program better be including the instructor ratings. now that would be a great program and still be very competitive with the other big schools as far as costs go.
 
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Being an ATP grad, I'm very dissapointed in this sham that they've concocted. One of the reasons I chose ATP was because they seemed more genuine than the rest, and didn't make false promises like so many others.

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Being a current student I was sent the brochure on this new program. In bolded red text ATP stated that they could not guarantee a job and that they did not make false promises or misleading claims. It also stated that ATP recommends the instructor track to the majority of candidates.
 
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As for the CRJ program being made available under a "deferred payment" program, I've heard nothing of this. I know some instructors are being offered the program at a discount, but Pfly's post is the first I have heard.

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I'd like to offer a clarification on that remark. While I was in the office, I was talking to an instructor who was doing the CRJ program and that is how he explained his particular situation to me. I should not have assumed that this was the norm, but I did. If this is not the norm, however, that would lend even less credibility to the argument that a finders fee was being asked for and paid to ATP. I would agree that this may not be the program for everybody and certainly agree that much more can be gained in terms of knowledge and experience by instructing. That is the path I chose and am currently following. I have been out there with students for just a few weeks now and have had my eyes opened to just how much you can learn from teaching and observing. But there are some people who perhaps should not be instructing. ATP, as does any other business, has the right to offer a competitive product to the market, and this product appears to be targeted towards those individuals. Only time will tell if this goes well or not, but as I said in a previous post, I would just like to see the particulars before passing judgement.
 
I sent ATP an email asking about the program last week. The crickets are starting to *creek*. I just want to hear it from the horses mouth.

GaTechKid ,
Can you scan that brochure and email it? Or is that a no no?
 
I say we all just show up and "duke it out". People forget to check their egos and opinions at the door before signing in. Lets just stick to what this website was intended to do.....share detailed and accurate information.
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Guys, I was asking you guy opinions, not to argue over the message board. By the way, this program has not become official yet. I have to wait and see by the early next year.


adreamer

ps: I apologize for starting "a can of worm"
 
What happened to the good old ATP? The ATP I was planning to go to didn't have all this junk... I know every other school is doing it, it just seemed to be ATP was different
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The regular old Career Pilot Program hasnt changed a bit. It is still 90 days and 7 checkrides. ATP is still the same great company led by the same great people as always.

The new program simply provides an alternative end point to the career pilot program that wasn't there before to potentially appeal to a different set of customers.

Whether a wise choice or not, there are PLENTY of people who have NO desire to instruct whatsoever. Some of them come to ATP amd many of them do not. The new program gives those people opportunities to do something that is usually quite difficult and time consuming to do: build time other than instructing... and for a pretty good price: about $70 per hour.

I think that the program is something to consider for those who are 30+ years old and dont have the luxury of spending a few years building time while instructing for very little $$. Consider a older 30-something career changer: it can be as many as 10 years before you get back to the income you were earning before you switched careers. If you can shave a year or more off of the time it takes to cross the "gap," it might just be something to consider... especially when many of the other major flight academies charge the same amount of $$$ (or more) and provide fewer total hours, fewer ratings and less multi time overall.

On the other side of the coin, the new alternative probably doesnt make sense for an 18 year old high school or a 23 year old College graduate.

I dont understand why a certain few people here are getting SO bent out of shape over this. It's just the same company offering a new alternative to an already outstanding program.

Maybe it is the talk of a guarantee? ATP does not use that word lightly. They never said they were guaranteeing a job or even an interview. This may be splitting hairs but they are guaranteeing that they will give you back $ (ie, rebate) if you are not successful at scoring a job after 3 months. They arent guaranteeing a job--although they now have a vested interest in helping you to obtain one. And that should be seen as a good thing.

And if the industry craps out again? So what, that's not ATP's fault. They bite the bullet if it does, but regardless of where you are, you still got yourself into an industry that could crap out... that's not ATP's fault.

So why all the belly-aching? Im dying to know what ATP did to you that provoked such vehement rhetoric.

Just my $0.02.
Happy Thanksgiving,

Jeremy
 
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