Another logging question

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
I am usually pretty good at these, but this one has me a little stumped. I am single pilot typed in the BE-300 (King Air 300/350). Let's say I am flying it Part 91, and I have a friend who has an SIC type in the BE-300. Can I designate him as a crewmember, so he can log SIC?
 

PilotDefenseAttorney

Well-Known Member
Either the aircraft or the operation must "require" an SIC by regulation, type certificate, MEL, or according to some other FAA mandate. It is not sufficient that you want or even "require" a copilot (as in I really, really want one or the boss really, really wants one, etc.). So, you can designate him a copilot but he cannot log the time for the purpose of currency, additional ratings, etc. And without getting into a long drawn out discussion, be careful what responsibilities you may be actually or constructively abdicating in favor of an informal "copilot." One of the most important aspects of CRM is the appropriate division of both responsibility and workload. You really cannot give any responsibility - and arguably, any workload - to an unofficial copilot.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Not PIC, just SIC.

Either the aircraft or the operation must "require" an SIC by regulation, type certificate, MEL, or according to some other FAA mandate. It is not sufficient that you want or even "require" a copilot (as in I really, really want one or the boss really, really wants one, etc.). So, you can designate him a copilot but he cannot log the time for the purpose of currency, additional ratings, etc. And without getting into a long drawn out discussion, be careful what responsibilities you may be actually or constructively abdicating in favor of an informal "copilot." One of the most important aspects of CRM is the appropriate division of both responsibility and workload. You really cannot give any responsibility - and arguably, any workload - to an unofficial copilot.
That's why I'm confused. When I got my type, I was issued a type with a restriction that required an SIC, then I did another checkride right after and removed it. Is the King Air 350 a two pilot airplane by default? This guy is a fully qualified SIC with an SIC type in the aircraft. It's on his certificate.
 

PilotDefenseAttorney

Well-Known Member
Not PIC, just SIC.


That's why I'm confused. When I got my type, I was issued a type with a restriction that required an SIC, then I did another checkride right after and removed it. Is the King Air 350 a two pilot airplane by default? This guy is a fully qualified SIC with an SIC type in the aircraft. It's on his certificate.
No. Since an SIC is not required when you fly the airplane an SIC if not "required" according to the FAA. If you still had the restriction on your certificate requiring the SIC your friend would be qualified to act in that capacity. Look at it this way. Could you fly the airplane without him there. If the answer is yes - no SIC is required - no SIC time can be logged.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
No. Since an SIC is not required when you fly the airplane an SIC if not "required" according to the FAA. If you still had the restriction on your certificate requiring the SIC your friend would be qualified to act in that capacity. Look at it this way. Could you fly the airplane without him there. If the answer is yes - no SIC is required - no SIC time can be logged.
OK, but where would I find out if an airplane requires two pilots? TCDS?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
OK, but where would I find out if an airplane requires two pilots? TCDS?
Yep. There is an entry for "Minimum Crew" in the TCDS. I can't confirm but would expect it will also be in the Limitations section of the modern POH.
Not PIC, just SIC.
Sorry misread. @PilotDefenseAttorney is absolutely correct. Either the aircraft certification or the operation must require more than one pilot for there to be loggable SIC time. By FAA regulation, not by pilot, company, passenger or insurance preference. The applicable logging reg is 61.51(f).
 

PilotDefenseAttorney

Well-Known Member
Yep. There is an entry for "Minimum Crew" in the TCDS. I can't confirm but would expect it will also be in the Limitations section of the modern POH.

Sorry misread. @PilotDefenseAttorney is absolutely correct. Either the aircraft certification or the operation must require more than one pilot for there to be loggable SIC time. By FAA regulation, not by pilot, company, passenger or insurance preference. The applicable logging reg is 61.51(f).
Yeah, there are really quite a number of source documents if the question is "is a second pilot required?" - TCDS; (POH; POH Supplements - both of which essentially become a part of the type certificate); 135 OPSPECs/MANUAL; MEL; FAR; etc.
 

Corporate Pilot

Well-Known Member
If you have your CFIIMEI you could give him instruction and sign it off as dual. It might not look great in his logbook since he already has his SIC and I am guessing time in the airplane.
 

z987k

Well-Known Member
Back in my E110 days the 135 OPSPECs required an SIC
All 135 IFR pax ops requires an SIC regardless of the certification of the airplane. Your opspecs may allow you to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC. If you have the single pilot authorization, the autopilot is not MEL'd, and the PIC doesn't require an SIC, an SIC can not log the time unless the operator has decided that the autopilot will not be used. There's a interpretation on this out there that I can't find at the moment.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
All 135 IFR pax ops requires an SIC regardless of the certification of the airplane. Your opspecs may allow you to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC. If you have the single pilot authorization, the autopilot is not MEL'd, and the PIC doesn't require an SIC, an SIC can not log the time unless the operator has decided that the autopilot will not be used. There's a interpretation on this out there that I can't find at the moment.
I think you are looking for the 2009 Nichols Letter - the election for Part 135 passenger flights under IFR is the third issue discussed.
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
All 135 IFR pax ops requires an SIC regardless of the certification of the airplane. Your opspecs may allow you.....
He says he's flying Part 91. Please stay with that. Quoting all the 135 and 121 regs is what keeps confusing these guys into thinking they can log SIC just because the Boss requires an SIC.
 

PilotDefenseAttorney

Well-Known Member
He says he's flying Part 91. Please stay with that. Quoting all the 135 and 121 regs is what keeps confusing these guys into thinking they can log SIC just because the Boss requires an SIC.
You are correct. It was not my intent to create or foster confusion. The initial reference I made to 135 operations was intended to get ahead of the conversation. Oftentimes a pilot's initial confusion comes from having heard about, or from seeing, SIC entries made in a particular type airplane. The assumption might be that such entries are always okay. It was my hope to illustrate under what circumstances such entries might in fact be okay in order to highlight when they are not (or at least encourage a bit more research). Sometimes a little depth of knowledge can help us retain information and apply it to future, similar facts.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
He says he's flying Part 91. Please stay with that. Quoting all the 135 and 121 regs is what keeps confusing these guys into thinking they can log SIC just because the Boss requires an SIC.
I see your point although one would hope illustrations of situations in which the rule is different and why would help understanding of the general rule.

IOW, the general rule is that one may not log SIC time unless aircraft certification or an FAA rule requires an SIC. Here are illustrations of when one is required and situations in which one is not. And the Boss is not the FAA.

And, of course, it's almost impossible to prevent thread creep in an online forum :)
 
Last edited:
Top