Another interview what if question...

ppragman said:
Here's one I've got, you're 25' off the ground, you've just rotated, and suddenly, the right engine in your rj/turboprop (heavies and big guys excluded here). You don't have the gear up yet. You have the runway infront of you to safely land and the ceiling is 500 Overcast, so you'll have to shoot an approach if you go around. Do you follow the decision speed rule? or do you screw the rule and stick it on the ground.now?
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Continue climbing, work the procedure, return for landing.


Me, I chop the power and plant the sucker, role out take it back to mx, and bitch. I think continuing around flying vectors and headings etc until you make it back to the final approach course would be way more dangerous than planting the sucker.
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Dead. or at best off the end of the runway.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Assuming balanced field length, I think.
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Balanced field, as I understand it, is simply when your accelerate go and accelerate stop distance(s) are the same. ie, it takes 2000 to reach v1, loose and engine, continue the take off and climb to 35 feet OR accelerate to V1 loose an engine and bring the aircraft to a stop. Both distances being the same, voila balanced field.
 
WalterSobchak said:
"Surely you can't be serious?"

How did you pass an check ride? The whole point of v speeds is to prevent actions like that. You chop the power, you will be off the end I guarantee it! You will have positive performance per part 25 certification. When I flew freight I lost 4 engines in 4 years. 1 was a crankshaft failure shortly after rotation in an Aztec. It climbed out about 400 ft/min(it was light and cool) I made it up to a 1000 agl came back around pumped the gear down and landed safely. Thats not even a transport category airplane. If I would have done something dumb like chop the power it would have went off the end and god knows how that would turn out. I hope you are just inexperienced and your company doesn't teach things like that.
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Thanks for being a dick.
 
BobDDuck said:
No idea about the 1900, but in the RJ it can take more then a 1000 feet horizontal to go from VR to 25 feet vertical. Depending on the weight and the flap setting we are probably doing 140 knots by rotation and 150 by the time the nose is off the ground and probably more by the time the mains lift off. Keep in mind that the trend of speed is increasing too. So lets say we are now at 155 knots and accelerating as well as a 1000 fpm or better vertical speed up and 1000 feet past the point of V1.

Chop the power here, it's still going to take some time for the plane to level and come back down. At that point you are doing almost 260 feet/sec That means you are eating up 1000 feet of runway ever 4 second. Keep in mind too, you are only going to have one reverser if you lost an engine so you are going to be relying on braking only to stop.

I'm thinking even on a 10000 foot runway you are going to go off the end.

Unless the plane won't come off the ground, I think I'm going to keep going after V1.
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What he said. The only time I would even consider a reject after V1 is a flight control issue like a jammed elevator. Even at V1 + 5 or so while still on the runway I would expect to run off the end. Just like Ethan said above, even on a 10000' runway at 25' you're going off the end and that's a best case scenario. You're probably going off into the trees, traffic, buildings, etc...

500 OVC single engine should be a non-event, we practice down to mins in the sim.

Please tell us about the guys decided to land. What were they flying and what happened? You mentioned the 1900 earlier, I've heard those engines are very reliable.
 
WalterSobchak said:
"Surely you can't be serious?"

How did you pass an check ride? The whole point of v speeds is to prevent actions like that. You chop the power, you will be off the end I guarantee it! You will have positive performance per part 25 certification. When I flew freight I lost 4 engines in 4 years. 1 was a crankshaft failure shortly after rotation in an Aztec. It climbed out about 400 ft/min(it was light and cool) I made it up to a 1000 agl came back around pumped the gear down and landed safely. Thats not even a transport category airplane. If I would have done something dumb like chop the power it would have went off the end and god knows how that would turn out. I hope you are just inexperienced and your company doesn't teach things like that.
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He is serious, and don't call him Surely.
 
I dunno bro, knowing what V1 means *should* be part of any checkride that involves an aircraft that has one. I used the "if the gear isn't up, we're aborting and going off the end" method in part 23 aircraft, but in part 25 aircraft you've gotta trust those engineers and not be a cowboy.
 
jtrain609 said:
I dunno bro, knowing what V1 means *should* be part of any checkride that involves an aircraft that has one. I used the "if the gear isn't up, we're aborting and going off the end" method in part 23 aircraft, but in part 25 aircraft you've gotta trust those engineers and not be a cowboy.
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:yeahthat: What mr. train said.

V1 and you're flying unless something really screwy happens like (obviously) a dual engine flameout. It's simple. I haven't flown a 1900, but even in the ATR (which had relatively low V1's compared to the rocket ship-like speeds of the CRJ200) it always looked like the end of the runway was coming up really fast at V1. At 25 feet above the runway, I don't think there's a runway in the country that you wouldn't be off the end of if you tried to chop the power in an RJ.
 
zmiller4 said:
:yeahthat: What mr. train said.

V1 and you're flying unless something really screwy happens like (obviously) a dual engine flameout. It's simple. I haven't flown a 1900, but even in the ATR (which had relatively low V1's compared to the rocket ship-like speeds of the CRJ200) it always looked like the end of the runway was coming up really fast at V1. At 25 feet above the runway, I don't think there's a runway in the country that you wouldn't be off the end of if you tried to chop the power in an RJ.
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At max gross or maybe above we use 114, 118, 119. 114 = V1, 118 = Vr, 119 = V2. Usually if we're using the 7L, the leftover ALD looks pretty good to get it back down.

One of the guys in Dutch planted it when the wx was ######, he wouldn't have been able to climb out and the wind coming over ballyhoo prolly would have killed him when he hit the shear.

As for reliability, they are very reliable, however, a few years ago, they were having a problem with the oil pumps. I guess the pressure was reading alright, but the engines weren't getting any oil and were eating themselves alive or something like that. Anyhoo, I know what V1 means, and I understand the implications. But if you'll read my post, I'm asking for what other people think about the issue. Now, however, I'm pissed. I post one thing on here, and suddenly I'm a dumbass who shouldn't have passed his checkride? Screw that, I'm not PIC anyway, so I have no real authority in the matter. Am I learning? Hell yes, I'm I progressing? Hell yes, and by the time I'm done working there, I'm going to be significantly better than when I got there. I come to JC because it seems to have useful information with professionals that seem to care very deeply about what their doing, and for all of those out there, thanks a lot, you guys, however what I don't need is comments like "how did you pass your checkride." What an incredible waste of my time. Go do something productive instead of insulting me, makes me wonder why I even waste so much time here.
 
So, just to wrap it up, you do know that under 99.99% of circumstances, you're going to want to continue the climb, yes? :)
 
I wouldn't want to chop and drop a 1900 after an engine failure. During a v1 cut it's an instant reaction to fly the airplane and your call outs / emergency procedure should follow. If you try and chop and drop that plane it's likely to go ALL OVER THE PLACE as you pull that power back. After the engine fails, just to keep it straight you would have put a lot of rudder into the operating engine. Pulling that power out would be ugly. In the sim we had a scenario.... 2000 lbs overweight...gear stuck down....v1 cut.. the plane still climbed.

There's also a good chance you would scare the crap out of the other guy you are flying with. It would probably cause confusion and the results most likely wouldn't be good.
 
To answer the interview question...

If we have an engine failure at or above v1 we are going flying!
 
ppragman said:
At max gross or maybe above we use 114, 118, 119. 114 = V1, 118 = Vr, 119 = V2. Usually if we're using the 7L, the leftover ALD looks pretty good to get it back down.

One of the guys in Dutch planted it when the wx was ######, he wouldn't have been able to climb out and the wind coming over ballyhoo prolly would have killed him when he hit the shear.

As for reliability, they are very reliable, however, a few years ago, they were having a problem with the oil pumps. I guess the pressure was reading alright, but the engines weren't getting any oil and were eating themselves alive or something like that. Anyhoo, I know what V1 means, and I understand the implications. But if you'll read my post, I'm asking for what other people think about the issue. Now, however, I'm pissed. I post one thing on here, and suddenly I'm a dumbass who shouldn't have passed his checkride? Screw that, I'm not PIC anyway, so I have no real authority in the matter. Am I learning? Hell yes, I'm I progressing? Hell yes, and by the time I'm done working there, I'm going to be significantly better than when I got there. I come to JC because it seems to have useful information with professionals that seem to care very deeply about what their doing, and for all of those out there, thanks a lot, you guys, however what I don't need is comments like "how did you pass your checkride." What an incredible waste of my time. Go do something productive instead of insulting me, makes me wonder why I even waste so much time here.
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I guess I'm gonna keep up the insults, because one of us is missing something here.

You said he wouldn't have been able to climb out if he lost an engine? Well there are some engineers at Beech that'd love to chat with you about that, because they certified your aircraft to be able to climb out at max gross weight at X climb gradient on one engine, so your buddy would have been able to climb out.

Now that goes out the window if you're operating over weight, and it doesn't matter if you don't run any calculations to figure out what your max weight for that departure is going to be.

So unless you're flying something like maybe a Beech 99 and not a 1900, which is a part 23 certified twin, then something isn't adding up here.

V1 means you're going no matter what, and if you've done your homework you know you'll out climb anything in your way or have an escape path. If you don't, you're a fool for departing in the first place eh?
 
I think I see, maybe, where your confusion on this issue may be coming from. You are looking at max weight numbers and seeing how close together they are and thinking a safer course of action would be to keep the airplane, or put the airplane, back on the ground because V2 is very close to V1. Not a totally unreasonable thought, IF the only factor at play here was the speed.

I think you are thinking in one dimension about these V speeds, you have to take into account a second dimension, your position along the runway.

Lets just play with the numbers a little bit, at V1 of 114 knots you are at a point on the runway that there is enough break energy and runway in front of you to stop AND/OR enough runway in front of you to accelerate to Vr and climb to 35' above the departure end of the runway. Now you look at a V2 of 118 and see only a 4 knot difference but you are not seeing how much farther down the runway you really are, probably somewhere around 500 to 700 feet, a lot of pavement when you think about it. That 500 or so feet isn't the only thing to consider, keep in mind the additional energy now needed to stop the airplane, that 4 knots equals about an additional 200-300 feet or so of landing distance (rule of thumb), add that to the already 500 or so feet of runway you have already chewed up, that is getting real close 1000 feet of extra runway needed, all over 4 knots. This doesn't even begin to bring into account the distance needed to bring the airplane back to the runway.
 
Its Alaska there's a few loose cannons up here. Aborting at Dutch probably made a lot of sense considering once you leave do you really want to go back and do you even want to try and go someplace else on one engine. http://airnav.com/airport/PADU

I'd say 50% of Captains I've been flying with brief a V2 abort when departing out of Anchorage. Its not standard but it sure makes more sense safety wise than flying an airplane around on 3 engines and risk losing another. Hopefully my thinking won't get too tainted by flying up here.
 
You would have to have a redonkulously long runway to be able to rotate, climb for a little cut the power and land again....pretty much no matter what turboprop/jet you're in. If you don't feel comfortable doing a single engine approach, you probably shouldn't be doing what you're doing.
 
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