Another Harebrained Idea by AAG

JetDoc

Pit Bull Wrangler
Quite sadly, AAG still just doesn't get it. The latest harebrained idea being floated is to send Horizon new hires who do not meet ATP mins is to an overseas carrier flying Q-300's to build time. Read about it all right here.
http://www.seattletimes.com/busines...scheduling-havoc-will-continue-into-the-fall/

Honestly, you really can't make this stuff up. I don't even know anyone who works there and still feel bad for them.
 
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The Senate Commerce Committee, on a party-line vote, agreed to a Republican-backed amendment that would make it easier for pilots to get the 1,500 hours of flight experience required under the law before they can fly a passenger airplane. Under the proposed change, experience at unaccredited flight schools, or training programs offered by the airlines, would for the first time be able to count toward the 1,500 hours requirement.

Republicans said that action is necessary to boost passenger air service in rural areas. They said smaller communities are losing air service in part because the commuter airlines that serve them can't hire enough pilots with the amount of experience that's currently required.

from http://www.flyingmag.com/senate-amendment-could-alter-1500-hour-pilot-rule an unconfirmed document, Legislative Concepts to Address Pilot Shortage – Funding for Pilot Training, reportedly detailing how Thune’s amendment might work. http://s3.amazonaws.com/bncore/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Regional-airlines-memo.pdf
 
The Senate Commerce Committee, on a party-line vote, agreed to a Republican-backed amendment that would make it easier for pilots to get the 1,500 hours of flight experience required under the law before they can fly a passenger airplane. Under the proposed change, experience at unaccredited flight schools, or training programs offered by the airlines, would for the first time be able to count toward the 1,500 hours requirement.

Republicans said that action is necessary to boost passenger air service in rural areas. They said smaller communities are losing air service in part because the commuter airlines that serve them can't hire enough pilots with the amount of experience that's currently required.

from http://www.flyingmag.com/senate-amendment-could-alter-1500-hour-pilot-rule an unconfirmed document, Legislative Concepts to Address Pilot Shortage – Funding for Pilot Training, reportedly detailing how Thune’s amendment might work. http://s3.amazonaws.com/bncore/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Regional-airlines-memo.pdf
This would only hurt rural service as the regionals would pull many pilots from the 135 operations that actually serve most of rural US.
 
Nothing makes me happier than hearing the cries of anguish emanating from regional airline executives. I hope it hurts--hard. Treat your pilots fairly dang it and pay them what they're worth!!

Oh, don't worry...they also don't like it when you call them out directly for their total ineptitude.

For them to play these games and then for them to weep loudly when they get called for playing these games just showed me how weak they are as individuals. Oh, granted, maybe they never achieved anything academically either though.

I was always able to tell those who finished some level of higher education from those who didnt...critical thinking skills were straight up non-existent. Too obvious.
 
Nothing makes me happier than hearing the cries of anguish emanating from regional airline executives. I hope it hurts--hard. Treat your pilots fairly dang it and pay them what they're worth!!

Management's candid answer: that defeats the purpose of why we created the regional airline model in the first place.
 
At first I was interested by these articles. Now I find myself annoyed. Not just with Horizon, but the regional industry as a whole. Many guys have entered the industry knowing they will be underpaid, undervalued and at times overworked as they barely see their families while trying to work their way up the ladder. Some of those guys point fingers at new hires, saying we are so lucky to have it so easy. I get it, rates were extremely lower in the past. In all honesty, it was their choice to fly a plane for 20k a year. They made it work, and are now making much more as captains at regionals or FO's at mainline. That still doesn't make being underpaid or undervalued right..

The truth is, like or not the "millennial" generation sees that as a sore. Whether you agree or not through personal experience or bias, it's true. Flight schools are struggling to find people, aside from Timmy whose daddy pays for the bill or sally who has an inheritance, not many can afford 60k in training for a 35-40k job. I was the youngest guy in my class, I'm 29. The next closest was someone who was married to a WN pilot. That says something, only those who can afford the job will take it.

Regionals now advertise you can make 60 plus first year. That includes per diem, travel benefits and a heavily taxed bonus, we can all agree that is pretty much false advertisement. Per diem is a tax free allowance one gets as that is their way to afford food on the road. Aside from endeavor, the money train stops after that until upgrade. Which some airlines are selling as well, but those who think it's a great idea to upgrade 18 months in a jet flying in the system forget that comes with a lot of responsibility as well. It scares me knowing that a flight from LGA to DFW may be under the superior supervision of a dude who as only seen one winter cycle, or one thunderstorm season.

Not 100 percent sure what I'm getting at here, other than venting what the current management deems a bad situation. They created it, heck 10 years ago guys were paying to sit right seat. Word got out about it, now bright and capable people choose other careers because they don't want to make 35k a year living in dads basement because rent rates in most bases will crush them financially considering the debt they have. 10-15 years ago, 35k may work, but with the crazy boost in CoL it doesn't work these days. Unless you have help, who wants that while having a job that you can potentially lose due to a bad day a recurrent, or a high blood pressure reading on a medical Exam by an AME. I always hear and see people tell new prospects to plan for a backup, get a degree in something other than aviation. Why is that? Because you can lose a career very easily as a pilot. Almost makes the crazy cost to get the hours not worth it, I have many friends who feel that way and now are engineers, real estate agents, hell even just bar tenders. These are all friends I met who shared the enthusiasm of being a pilot in our intro to aviation class 5 years ago. They decided the reward was not worth the risk, and moved on. Something has to give...

Horizon may be the first 121 carrier to feel the pinch due to management / labor issues, but this won't be the end of it. Even airlines like SkyWest will have issues, once the masses realize the lack in pay to sit Reserve in SFO or LAX will be hard on their wallets.

Paint me a pessimist, but I like to think of my viewpoint as a realist. You can only dog your labor group so long before change will happen, which is proving to be true at this moment. I am proud to be where I'm at, and love what I do. But the truth is, not many people this day and age will choose that high of being a pilot over their financial comfort.
 
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You can mostly blame the pilot unions and the FAA.

The unions negotiated these top heavy contracts with little regard for the new hire pay (save for UPS, I would be proud to work there). Then when companies want to raise new hire pay they say no, we want more for our guys making $100/hr too.

In a sane rational world new hire pay would've never been in the $20k range. Senior captain pay would've never been $100k. The two would've been a lot more evened, maybe $40k to start rising to $80k.

Now throw in the 1,500 hour rule when the feds limited the ability to hire guys just as we were coming out of a recession with limited enrollment in the first place and soaring retirement numbers.

The feds should've exempted smaller turboprop operators from the 1,500 rule (ie Saabs and B1900s) and reduced the 135 IFR mins to commercial pilot holders. This would've created a better career flow that ensures what they wanted in the first place - better more well rounded pilots entering flight decks of larger turbojet aircraft.
 
Now throw in the 1,500 hour rule when the feds limited the ability to hire guys just as we were coming out of a recession with limited enrollment in the first place and soaring retirement numbers.

The feds should've exempted smaller turboprop operators from the 1,500 rule (ie Saabs and B1900s) and reduced the 135 IFR mins to commercial pilot holders. This would've created a stack of dead bodies.
Fixed and are you serious?
135 IFR mins to CPL? So just when people get their license you throw them in ancient equipment with some of the highest demands?
Also, the turboprops are significantly harder to fly than the jets. If anything you should stick the 250 hour guy in the right seat of a modern jet and let him work his way to the left seat of a Q. Despite the absurd notion that flying jets is harder from retarded HR people, any pilot that came up flying 402s/pa31s, saabs and 1900s will tell you it's exactly the opposite. Flying jets just means there's more responsibility regarding costs and total numbers of lives.
 
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Fixed and are you serious?
135 IFR mins to CPL? So just when people get their license you throw them in ancient equipment with some of the highest demands?
Also, the turboprops are significantly harder to fly than the jets. If anything you should stick the 250 hour guy in the right seat of a modern jet and let him work his way to the left seat of a Q. Despite the absurd notion that flying jets is harder from retarded HR people, any pilot that came up flying pa31s, saabs and 1900s will tell you it's exactly the opposite. Flying jets just means there's more responsibility regarding costs and total numbers of lives.


This is true. I'm finding out first hand while flying my first real turboprop, and I'm 1800 into the game lmao
 
First year at UPS is about 44. Second year 175. I think you'll find higher first years other places but second year is quite good.
 
First year at UPS is about 44. Second year 175. I think you'll find higher first years other places but second year is quite good.

That Is crazy, so do guys who get hired that have mortgages and kids just live off of loans that first year? I mean second year more than makes up for it but still, I can't see a 30-40 year old with 4K hours and a family able to survive on 45 grand first year

Sounds like a good way to wean out the weak for sure
 
That Is crazy, so do guys who get hired that have mortgages and kids just live off of loans that first year? I mean second year more than makes up for it but still, I can't see a 30-40 year old with 4K hours and a family able to survive on 45 grand first year

Sounds like a good way to wean out the weak for sure

I know. My last recommendee was an Atlas 76 Capt. No regrets, no hesitation. Pension was a big deal and second year pay was more than he made at Atlas. Not sure how they do it but they do it. No shortage of folks wanting to work here. When I was 29 I was single and no issues with first year pay but it's though on guys in their late 40's with kids in college.
 
I know. My last recommendee was an Atlas 76 Capt. No regrets, no hesitation. Pension was a big deal and second year pay was more than he made at Atlas. Not sure how they do it but they do it. No shortage of folks wanting to work here. When I was 29 I was single and no issues with first year pay but it's though on guys in their late 40's with kids in college.
It's real easy. I did the math. If I upgrade next year at Atlas and never upgrade at UPS, over only 25 years the compensation difference including retirement and hourly pay only is $5 million. I did it again applying the new Hawaiian rates (which are low and we'd be lucky to get) to our style work rules and it's still over $2 million.
Millions of dollars vs losing about 50k for 1 year. You can't afford not to. It would actually make financial sense to take out a 50k loan at something outrageous like 25% to make up the difference if you had to.
 
First year at UPS is about 44. Second year 175. I think you'll find higher first years other places but second year is quite good.

If you were to "combine" cost that, 44+175 = 219 for first two years. IMO would much rather have that same 219 broken down as say 90 for year one and 129 for year 2.
 
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