bunk22
Well-Known Member
Usually the public will get their info from the JAG unless the JAG is conducted under a litigation. I've done the last two 45 JAGs, one of which was a litigation.
Another F-22 crash
- Thread starter deadpixel
- Start date
Usually the public will get their info from the JAG unless the JAG is conducted under a litigation. I've done the last two 45 JAGs, one of which was a litigation.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and if you read the fine print this one is the AF version of a JAGMAN apparently. Is there always a JAG conducted regardless of the scenario involved in the mishap? (I should prob know this being the NATOPS Officer and doing safety O stuff too on occasion but I don't)
You'll always have the two investigations going on. Safety investigation (AF/USN same) and Accident investigation (JAG investigation in USN parlance). The first is to find cause, the second is to place blame as well as to be publically releasable.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah I am familiar with the two types and differences between the two, but I was just under the impression that on the USN side, we only convened the JAG investigation if it were deemed necessary. It sounds like the USAF always conducts both?
pete2800
'Member?
Armstrong line, roughly 64,000. When the boiling point of water becomes 98.6 degrees.
Correct. If not for finding blame, but moreso that there will ALWAYS be a publically releasable report, since the Safety investigation isn't releasable as a whole.
rwgb1984
Well-Known Member
Said no one ever.
The Fez
Analog Millennial
Thanks for the link. I guess I just bit off on all the controversy surrounding the contaminants that have been found in the Raptor's OBOGS system and its pilot's lungs.
The comment about "taking his mask off" is probably the strangest thing I've read in a while. If you've lost cabin pressure, and your oxygen system is inop, the LAST thing you do is remove your mask. In my primary training this type of procedure was BOLDFACE.
GREEN RING - PULL (AS REQUIRED).
I'm not sure if it is the same type of procedure in the Raptor.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I'd disagree. When the O2 cuts out, you start to suffocate in about 1 second. It has happened to me, both as the fault of OBOGS as well as the fault of a hose connection coming loose (at night in the middle of a join-up no less). The correct answer is to pull the green ring, but I would argue that this isn't the first thing that comes to mind when you can no longer breath or talk and you don't know why.
The Fez
Analog Millennial
I haven't flown with an O2 mask since June of 2010, so I'll defer to your more recent and applicable experience. The closest I've been to oxygen starvation lately is at Water Survival Refresher where my SERE instructor is desperately trying to drown me while I clear my HEEDS bottle and figure out why the seat belt won't release.
Bullcrap. Every fighter pilot movie I've ever seen, the fighter pilot is having trouble breathing while flying and drops his mask in order to breathe, then is hyperventilating.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm only talking to a full failure of flow, which is pretty much always the result of shutting the bleeds off (like this example) or of your hose becoming disconnected. So not really a traditional "OBOGS failure" where the concentration of O2 is bad or the flow is contaminated. This mishap was not the result of an OBOGS problem, it was the result of the bleed air shut down system (or whatever the same thing is called in the Raptor) doing its job and automatically shutting the bleeds off to prevent an engine compartment fire. With the bleeds goes cabin pressure, OBOGS, ECS, and anything else bleed related. You are absolutely right that the first thing that would have likely saved his life would have been to pull the green ring. This kind of failure is not that uncommon, but it presented an extremely lethal situation given the uncommon altitudes these guys fly at. I'd bet money that the vast majority of these "OBOGS" issues are a direct result of the fact that these guys wear O2 masks and rely on cabin pressurization in what is by any other historical precedent, a pressure suit environment.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
In the Eagle, when the MSOGS failed, it was impossible to breathe until that apple was pulled. If you were all ready lightly to moderately incapacitated, it would be much easier to reach up and undo the j-clip on the mask than it would be to fumble around to reach the apple.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Fully agree. Wrong or right, that would probably be my first reaction.
The Fez
Analog Millennial
Bullcrap. Every fighter pilot movie I've ever seen, the fighter pilot is having trouble breathing while flying and drops his mask in order to breathe, then is hyperventilating.
Interesting. In every fighter pilot movie I've seen, they're flying around with their masks off anyway. That is, of course, until they spot some bandits and make some candy ass radio call...
The Fez
Analog Millennial
That's two for two on dropping the mask. I stand corrected.
Now I'll never get to fly the Osprey...
I used to always fly around with the mask down except for takeoff, landing and employment. Otherwise so long as shouldered it up to my mouth to talk to ATC or whomever (to avoid the static background) it was all good. The Super Hornet has some kind of noise cancelling, so you don't even need to do that anymore, you can just press the PTT, and talk with the mask hanging and it's all good.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
All of the later lot Hornets (C/D on, not sure if it was a lot 12 addition though) have this as well. There is a VOX knob over by the throttles that you can turn up or down to increase or decrease the sensitivity of the mic. Above about halfway, and you start getting cockpit noises if you aren't wearing the mask. So basically adjustable hot mic, though you still obviously have to press the transmit button on the throttle to actually talk on the radio.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I'm mostly the opposite -- I have usually always flown mask up, unless cross country with a tanker or over in the sand container doing XINT or XCAS at night (which will create a nice welt on the bridge of my nose thanks to the NVGs).
Total agreement that mask is ALWAYS up when talking on the radio, else I smack you in the debrief for sounding like a retardo.
Yeah it was always mask up for takeoff, landing, and any combat or mission employment times.....times where comms were critical and "shouldering" the mask up to my mouth wasn't practical. At all other times, it was mask down and visor down, both for comfort as well as for cool factor . Mind you, my whole time in jets I had a 5/P mask...the OD green one, in both the A-10 and the F-117 (went perfect with my F-4 Phantom flights); about the only guy left flying with one in any of the units I was in. I never did ever have a 12/P mask. Ironically, about week prior to my last flight in the active duty-AF.....and my last flight in a tactical jet, the AF in it's infinite wisdom, issued me a 20/P Combat Edge mask in the F-117 at the same time they replaced the last of our black -55 helmets with grey ones, or the old ones we had. Then didn't want the mask back, even though I never flew with it. Go figure.