Another endorsement issue

B

banjo

Well-Known Member
I just started flying with a pvt pilot applicant. Already has 40+ hours, soloed 172, passed written and has 4.2 solo x-country. I see on his student pilot license ( medical ) his previous instructor never singed it for solo x country at the bottom. Question is does that make his 4.2 hours void? I started flying with him because he bought a C140. His first instructor is 1200 miles away so not handy to have him sign it. Thoughts?
 
It's logged so I would say the time is valid.
Just don't let him continue without the endorsement.
 
Logged time is valid as long as it actually was flown as logged, so he's in the right there. If he has the proper logbook endorsements for the flight the FAA will (or at least should) likely have no issues between you or the student. They may want to have a discussion with the prior CFI, however.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Logged time is valid as long as it actually was flown as logged, so he's in the right there. If he has the proper logbook endorsements for the flight the FAA will (or at least should) likely have no issues between you or the student. They may want to have a discussion with the prior CFI, however.
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The FAA has taken action against student pilots who flew without the correct endorsements, though it is normally something egregious.
 
If you can contact the previous instructor he can mail a signed label that can be affixed in the proper location. Should pass muster with the FAA, but I am not a lawyer nor the FAA so take it for what it's worth.
 
Just to add to what flyboy6585 wrote. I would not ask the previous CFI to send the endorsement, I would tell him to do so. If he refuses to do so advise him he faces certification action. The FAA has and will take action against instructors who refuse to make the required endorsements.
 
Blackhawk said:
Just to add to what flyboy6585 wrote. I would not ask the previous CFI to send the endorsement, I would tell him to do so. If he refuses to do so advise him he faces certification action. The FAA has and will take action against instructors who refuse to make the required endorsements.
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While 61.189 requires me to sign the logbook of anyone to whom I give instruction, no one "tells" me to give an endorsement where the word "proficiency" is involved. They ask.
 
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Old Pete said:
While 61.189 requires me to sign the logbook of anyone to whom I give instruction, no one "tells" me to give an endorsement where the word "proficiency" is involved. They ask.
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The CFI in this question would have two options:
1. Take care of the endorsement he forgot about.
2. Explain to the FAA why he let a student do a cross country without the proper endorsements.

Just me, but I'd pick the former.
 
Guys, I disagree. I would consider the time void if the student does not have the endorsement allowing the flight. Now, if the original instructor replaces the endorsement that fell out, washed off, or was victim to disappearing ink from an Econolodge pen, then no worries.

If you are not able to obtain the proper endorsement making the solo time legal, I would NOT use that time towards the minimum required for the certificate.

Best solution in this case would be for the instructor to use a better pen on that student pilot certificate to replace the faded endorsement. And file a NASA form.

Just curious, did the student have all the other proper logbook endorsements for the cross country solo?
 
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From my understanding, most DPE's won't accept the flight time if the student doesn't have the proper endorsement that allows that flight time to be valid. Regardless if he "logged" it or not, it's not valid flight time. You can write anything in your logbook, doesn't mean it's valid time.

I would have the previous instructor send an endorsement. Why risk having your student get to a checkride, for something you know isn't valid? And then make yourself look even worse? You don't want to project it onto the previous instructor because then you'll look worse. If for some reason the instructor "refuses" then I'd call the FSDO and see what they say. It doesn't hurt to ask and like others said, the previous instructor would be in trouble.

That's just my thought as a new instructor...I've talked to DPE's before and the majority of them emphasize making sure your student has valid flight time for the certificate sought and ALL the proper endorsements. Some DPE's might not care but most are pretty picky about that...
 
tcco94 said:
Why risk having your student get to a checkride, for something you know isn't valid?

That's just my thought as a new instructor...I've talked to DPE's before and the majority of them emphasize making sure your student has valid flight time for the certificate sought and ALL the proper endorsements. Some DPE's might not care but most are pretty picky about that...
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This. It's not worth the risk against your certificate, or the student's new certificate. Even if the error is not caught, wait until the student's logbook gets looked at years later by a Fed when they are taking another checkride. Fed catches the error, you and the student both get a certified letter in the mail, just not worth the risk. I'd either get the paperwork fixed or re-fly that time on your proper endorsement.
 
I think this also makes a great point for any instructor: if you ever "inherit" a new student, especially one who has made partial progress through training for a certificate or rating, make your first lesson with them a paperwork review! Sit down and read through their logbook and compare everything to the regulations. You'd be surprised what you'll find! It's in your best interest to make sure that any student you touch has the proper paperwork for what you sign them off to do.
 
I think that it is probably fair to presume that it was an oversight by the original instructor, especially if the logbook endorsements for the 4.2 hrs of solo cross country were in the student's logbook, although the OP didn't state whether that is the case. And the logical remedy would be for that instructor to make the appropriate endorsement.

But something similar happened to me twice. I had a DPE ask me why a student's student pilot certificate did not have any endorsements on the back of it. I told him that I had endorsed it. He handed me the certificate and sure enough there weren't any endorsements on the back of it. I looked at the date it was issued and realized that the student had replaced his original student pilot certificate which had expired. I asked the student if he had his expired student pilot certificate and he did. On the back of the certificate were the appropriate endorsements.

Another scenario is that the instructor never "let" or authorized the student to fly solo cross country. I've met several people who have claimed to have flown solo without their instructors approval. Only a month ago, someone crashed an RV-10 killing 5 people. A report stated that he did not have a pilot certificate, not even a student pilot certificate.
 
Old Pete said:
But something similar happened to me twice. I had a DPE ask me why a student's student pilot certificate did not have any endorsements on the back of it. I told him that I had endorsed it. He handed me the certificate and sure enough there weren't any endorsements on the back of it. I looked at the date it was issued and realized that the student had replaced his original student pilot certificate which had expired. I asked the student if he had his expired student pilot certificate and he did. On the back of the certificate were the appropriate endorsements.
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That's a great point that you bring up as well. I had gotten into a disagreement with another CFI telling me that you need the student pilot certificate signed every 90 days. Lots of instructors had thought both the solo and solo x-country was needed to be signed every 90 days when I stated, if they're in the same make and model then it's a one time endorsement. For solo x-country it's only category, so odds are that one for sure won't need to be touched again....EVEN if the student pilot certificate expires and they get a new one (on the back of their medical). It even says on the FAA website about that issue of students carrying their old student pilot certificate with the proper endorsement.

Either way, once they get their private then all of this will be irrelevant. It's just you don't want to set your student up for that discussion with a DPE and then have the DPE come hunting for you. If my DPE brought this up to me on my private pilot checkride, I would have probably had no idea what he was talking about. I never understood the importance of endorsements and CFI's signature's on them until I become a CFI. Now I'm always on guard for those things, especially for the legal reasons. The problem is, they can get really confusing/complicated that sparks lots of various debates.
 
Blackhawk said:
Just to add to what flyboy6585 wrote. I would not ask the previous CFI to send the endorsement, I would tell him to do so. If he refuses to do so advise him he faces certification action. The FAA has and will take action against instructors who refuse to make the required endorsements.
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Why the need to be so high-handed for what was most likely a small innocent error?

Receiving a request from the new instructor, I would send him a signed label or other document to be attached or, if feasible, arrange to sign directly.

Receiving an order from the new instructor threatening to turn me in to the FAA for possible certificate action, I would make the same arrangements, but directly with my former student so I can warn him about the officious • he managed to get as a CFI.
 
Getting the previous instructor to fix the endorsement is the way to go, imo. You don't want the student to have to explain why he has two long solo cross countries in his logbook.
 
rockman2343@aol.com said:
Getting the previous instructor to fix the endorsement is the way to go, imo. You don't want the student to have to explain why he has two long solo cross countries in his logbook.
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Or, why you signed them off for a check ride without having the proper endorsement for a cross country flight that should have never happened. Who's to say that that entry isn't just pencil whipped.

I've given a student every endorsement minus one as motivation.

"We've covered everything required per the regs. But you need to show me you are ready in this one particular area. Once you show me proficiency in that area, I'll sign you off. Go home and study. Maybe next lesson you'll have it locked in, and we can finish the endorsements."
 
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