Another career jumper...

Congrats on making the decision. Like any change, there are ups and downs to this road, just go in with your eyes wide open, keep reading the threads here on JC, listen to the advice...and it's all about attitude. Good luck!
 
Gerry, I like your line of thinking, very similar to the way I think. The nice thing for me is that I do not HAVE to fly 121, although I would like to, but I take life one step at a time and flow with what comes my way. If I am meant to fly corporate, cargo, charter...so be it. I am not dead set on anything except for the fact that I WILL fly and make the best of it no matter where I go.

In everything there is good and bad and here is one example of bad and good just to prove my point. As a crummy airline pilot with low pay, horrible flight schedule, bad hotels and crappy legs, some would sit and dwell on it just to get immersed in self pity...just think for a moment though....you take another pilot with the same situations as the "crummy" guy, yet he is happy. Now why is that? He is doing what he loves...Ever hear the saying that if you love what you do, you won't work a day in your life? Think about all of the people that depend on you as a pilot...a father that hasn't seen his kids in a year because he was serving our country overseas, the child, parent, etc. traveling to see their loved one for the last time, the HR that is on his way home to be buried in their hometown, the children that are flying to see a parent for the only week of the year that they get to, the grandparents on their way to see their newborn grandbaby for the first time....and the list goes on. Those are defining moments of their lives, that for a brief time, you are an integral part of. Kind of awesome if you ask me. Now are there rude & annoying passengers? Yes there are, but they depend on you to get them from point A to point B. Am I an airline pilot having to deal with everything involved, good or bad, from day to day? Easy for me to say without being in your shoes? No, however I sit in an office that no one wants to come to, at times one of the most depressing places on the planet, but instead of getting down and whining, I always flip the paper over and look at the other side. I guess all I am saying is that everything in life is what you make of it. And I personally will make the best of the piloting world.

Now I'm very big on networking and picking brains. My wife says that I would talk to a wall if it would listen and respond back. I take the good and bad stories from others with a grain of salt knowing that some people are just plain miserable no matter what. Life is what you make of it, believe you me, I have had my fair share of crap-sandwiches but those will not keep me down. I positive, realistic attitude will take a person a long long ways and I try to be positive the majority of the time. I understand that ups will come and with that, downs as well. Unlike a young buck that hasn't ridden the waves of life, I have surfed the pipe of life at times. You gotta roll with the punches and like Joe Dirt says, "Ya gotta keep on keepin' on!"

F9DXER, yeah I'll keep you in mind but don't hold your breath...funerals can be quite expensive. But if you are ever in PGD, I'll let ya drive it.

Beef, I'm sorry to hear that bud. Things gotta get better for ya!


BTW, This JC slice of the web is pretty cool. There is a ton of informative information and some not so informative but seems to be filled with some very dedicated people. Thanks for allowing me into the abyss and making me feel welcome.
 
Ok..I wasn't going to say anything and just keep my big mouth shut....Butttt,

Like many here I started flying at the age of 16 and now at the grant old age of 52 (30 yrs of combined airline flying) I'm nearing the end of the road you're just beginning. I've been active in aviation since the days of cheap avgas and rental rates and before computer desktops and virtual flying software were commonplace. You had two routes to the airlines back then, military and civilian FBO's and commuter flying to build time toward the big leagues. Back then you had to have 1500tt just to get the commuter airlines to even look at a resume and now it looks with the new rules it'll soon be a requirement. In my day that was just to fly right seat in a BE99 or Bandit. Times change and we all have to change with them. Needs of the airlines and the Omni-present/all knowing government dictate what is currently required. What was required 30 yrs ago is different today and will be different in the future. That, you can count on. Not necessarily better or worse...just different.

I been extremely lucky throughout my career! I say lucky because my preparation and hard work always seemed to be met with great timing in the industry on each rung of the career ladder. I've come to believe that "luck" and "timing" are the big "X" factors in aviation. Sometimes I couldn't believe how lucky I was and have been and contribute my good fortune to a much higher power that is out of my control. I've known and witnessed countless scores of folks just as qualified and more deserving than I fall by the wayside simply due to timing and luck. There seems to be no guarantees other than constant change in aviation and the ability to play musical chairs.

I've watched the continued erosion of aviation and specifically airline flying over the last 30 yrs too. Airlines, all employees including pilots have been asked to do more with less, take contract concessions, accept a reduced quality of life and increased dangers such as terrorism attacks and lithium battery fires (Doug Lampe, 744 Capt of UPS 6 was a friend of mine...they don't come any better or sharper!) that weren't even on my radar scope when I started. I've watched the continual downfall of common courtesy for one another in society and also respect for authority as we cocoon ourselves with our pretend friends on Facebook and Tweeter accounts while being impatient and ignoring real people we meet day to day. You never no how that person you meet today and interact with may affect your future...six degrees of separation and all that.

Back to the OP's post...

You are getting ready to incur huge debt (unless you're independently wealthy, oil tycoon or a trust fund baby) at the expense of your wife and 6 kids with absolutely ZERO guarantees of success or even breaking even for that matter and time really isn't on your side anymore. I can't blame you for wanting change, to follow your heart or try something new but understand that aviation is a very expensive crap shoot at best. There are so many pitfalls along the way you may not have considered including loss of your medical, FAA violations, economic downturns, furloughs, bankruptcy, etc. that are totally out of your control but you need to be aware of and consider.

Congrats, btw, on passing your first FAA medical. I've had two a year since I was 16. By the time I was your age I had accumulated 42 of them. That's 42 chances of knocking me out of the cockpit and each one is a 50/50 chance of failing. So far, other than a small dose BP med I've been good to go. No guarantees of that continuing and they get harder as you get older. So many things will knock you out of the cockpit for good that wouldn't even be a small bump in the road with a desk job. Just the price of admission.

You say you'll flt instruct at ATP when you're done with your ratings to build time? That's great! What if you don't succeed in obtaining your ratings? What if you can't or don't pass your CFI? It's not a given. Flying isn't for everyone and while desire is very important it's not the deciding factor. Many rookie NFL payers don't make the roster and it's not due to lack of desire. Ability, coordination, task management, the ability to quickly and accurately work through a complex problem while under stress are all important traits along the way to success.

What if, when that time comes, they don't offer you a position or don't have one to even offer you or due to economic times the student population dries up? What then? Backup plan? Also, not many people can afford to drop the kind of coin on ratings on a questionable future flying career anymore and I don't see many kids looking toward the skies like they did in the past. Even my own daughter and her friends poo poo the idea of flying for a livin'......it's boring they say. I was once that starry eyed kid that breathed, ate, slept and read all things aviation. I flew every chance I got and loved every minute of it. Now, unfortunately, it's a paycheck, a job and a means toward retirement and be able to do other things I love.

I could write a book on the subject but you're a big boy and I'm sure you've seen many of life's ups and downs by now. But if you think that aviation is all rainbows and unicorns and that it has to be better than what you're currently doing......be careful what you ask for. I know this post has mostly come across as cynical. It wasn't my intent but it's the truth has I have seen it over the years. You have a big decision to make and you have 7 other people to think about and who are counting on you to get it right. If you were mid 20's and/or no kids I say knock yourself out..go for it. With that many dependents I'm not sure I'd spend the exorbitant amount of money you'll be required to pay up front just to play. There are no easy answers but I can tell you it's not as simple as step 1, step 2 and then step 3 and I've made it. Aviation is a fickle thing.

Above all else, I wish you nothing but good luck and a safe, happy road to your dreams.
 
A300Capt said:
Ok..I wasn't going to say anything and just keep my big mouth shut....Butttt,

Like many here I started flying at the age of 16 and now at the grant old age of 52 (30 yrs of combined airline flying) I'm nearing the end of the road you're just beginning. I've been active in aviation since the days of cheap avgas and rental rates and before computer desktops and virtual flying software were commonplace. You had two routes to the airlines back then, military and civilian FBO's and commuter flying to build time toward the big leagues. Back then you had to have 1500tt just to get the commuter airlines to even look at a resume and now it looks with the new rules it'll soon be a requirement. In my day that was just to fly right seat in a BE99 or Bandit. Times change and we all have to change with them. Needs of the airlines and the Omni-present/all knowing government dictate was is currently required. What was required 30 yrs ago is different today and will be different in the future. That, you can count on. Not necessarily better or worse...just different.

I been extremely lucky throughout my career! I say lucky because my preparation and hard work always seemed to be met with great timing in the industry on each rung of the career ladder. I've come to believe that "luck" and "timing" are the big "X" factors in aviation. Sometimes I couldn't believe how lucky I was and have been and contribute my good fortune to a much higher power that is out of my control. I've known and witnessed countless scores of folks just as qualified and more deserving than I fall by the wayside simply due to timing and luck. There seems to be no guarantees other than constant change in aviation and the ability to play musical chairs.

I've watched the continued erosion of aviation and specifically airline flying over the last 30 yrs too. Airlines, all employees including pilots have been asked to do more with less, take contract concessions, accept a reduced quality of life and increased dangers such as terrorism attacks and lithium battery fires (Doug Lampe, 744 Capt of UPS 6 was a friend of mine...they don't come any better or sharper!) that weren't even on my radar scope when I started. I've watched the continual downfall of common courtesy for one another in society and also respect for authority as we cocoon ourselves with our pretend friends on Facebook and Tweeter accounts while being impatient and ignoring real people we meet day to day. You never no how that person you meet today and interact with may affect your future...six degrees of separation and all that.

Back to the OP's post...

You are getting ready to incur huge debt (unless you're independently wealthy, oil tycoon or a trust fund baby) at the expense of your wife and 6 kids with absolutely ZERO guarantees of success or even breaking even for that matter and time really isn't on your side anymore. I can't blame you for wanting change, to follow your heart or try something new but understand that aviation is a very expensive crap shoot at best. There are so many pitfalls along the way you may not have considered including loss of your medical, FAA violations, economic downturns, furloughs, bankruptcy, etc. that are totally out of your control but you need to be aware of and consider.

Congrats, btw, on passing your first FAA medical. I've had two a year since I was 16. By the time I was your age I had accumulated 42 of them. That's 42 chances of knocking me out of the cockpit and each one is a 50/50 chance of failing. So far, other than a small dose BP med I've been good to go. No guarantees of that continuing and they get harder as you get older. So many things will knock you out of the cockpit for good that wouldn't even be a small bump in the road with a desk job. Just the price of admission.

You say you'll flt instruct at ATP when you're done with your ratings to build time? That's great! What if you don't succeed in obtaining your ratings? What if you can't or don't pass your CFI? It's not a given. Flying isn't for everyone and while desire is very important it's not the deciding factor. Many rookie NFL payers don't make the roster and it's not due to lack of desire. Ability, coordination, task management, the ability to quickly and accurately work through a complex problem while under stress are all important traits along the way to success.

What if when that time comes they don't offer you a position or don't have one to even offer you or due to economic times the student population dries up? What then? Backup plan? Also, not many people can afford to drop the kind of coin on ratings on a questionable future flying career anymore and I don't see many kids looking toward the skies like they did in the past. Even my own daughter and her friends poo poo the idea of flying for a livin'......it's boring they say. I was once that starry eyed kid that breathed, ate, slept and read all things aviation. I flew every chance I got and loved every minute of it. Now, unfortunately, it's a paycheck, a job and a means toward retirement and be able to do other things I love.

I could write a book on the subject but you're a big boy and I'm sure you've seen many of life's ups and downs by now. But if you think that aviation is all rainbows and unicorns and that it has to be better than what you're currently doing......be careful what you ask for. I know this post has mostly come across as cynical. It wasn't my intent but it's the truth has I have seen it over the years. You have a big decision to make and you have 7 other people to think about and who are counting on you to get it right. If you were mid 20's and/or no kids I say knock yourself out..go for it. With that many dependents I'm not sure I'd spend the exorbitant amount of money you'll be required to pay up front just to play. There are no easy answers but I can tell you it's not as simple as step 1, step 2 and then step 3 and I've made it. Aviation is a fickle thing.

Above all else, I wish you nothing but good luck and a safe, happy road to your dreams.
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Outstanding advice! This advice right here you should take to heart. I too was where you were I always loved airplanes but I went to college to be a computer programmer back then thats where the money was. I got out of college and I hated programming so I started flying got a few ratings then my heath turned bad I knew I could not make a career of flying for the airlines so I still wanted to be around airplanes so I got my A@P and got a job with a major airline and worked for them for close to 20 years then a strike forced me out of that company and I had to start over at 42 I was very fortunate to be hired at my current company and make a top salary but I do not like or enjoy the job but at my age (almost 50) I really do not have many options left. I feel you are correct life is short and you need to do what makes you happy. But here is the thing I am single with no kids. You on the other hand your decisions do not just affect you. You have a wife and 6 kids and are about to embark on a journey that will cost a fortune to put it mildly. At your current age 37 you will most likely even with the best of luck not ever recoup that investment. I know advice is cheap I think you should reevaluate your decision and maybe do the flying thing for fun and find a job that pays well that you don't hate but can afford you the things that make you happy and not at the expense of your wife and kids who will most likely not see you much while your paying your dues in aviation. Just my 2 cents I hope you think about it and best of luck in whatever you decide. Aviation can be very fun but like A300 Capt said times have changed I don't see aviation as fun anymore. Good Luck!!
 
Fantastic post A300Capt. As much as I enjoy flying professionally, I do often wonder if I had to start again would I still be able to afford it. As a young engineer in my '20s in the early 2000s, it was pretty damn spendy (and I was single!). Now it's just crazy expensive, and there aren't as many options either. Tough call for sure.
 
I think A300 is spot on. That is really the best advice you're going to get. Please dont take this the wrong way but timing really isn't on your side. I would do my best to try and look at this from a realistic point of view. From what Im reading, you would be taking out loans to fund your training? If so, dont put yourself and your family in financial jeopardy. Dont buy into that pilot shortage crap as a source to fuel any part of your decision. To me its a red herring and isn't going to do anything positive for the industry. If I were you I would just bang out that PPL, maybe get an IR and have some fun flying airplanes.
 
SeanD said:
I think A300 is spot on. That is really the best advice you're going to get. Please dont take this the wrong way but timing really isn't on your side. I would do my best to try and look at this from a realistic point of view. From what Im reading, you would be taking out loans to fund your training? If so, dont put yourself and your family in financial jeopardy. Dont buy into that pilot shortage crap as a source to fuel any part of your decision. To me its a red herring and isn't going to do anything positive for the industry. If I were you I would just bang out that PPL, maybe get an IR and have some fun flying airplanes.
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So you saying us old guys (I'm 48) shouldn't make the jump?
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
So you saying us old guys (I'm 48) shouldn't make the jump?
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Im not saying that at all. Im saying for the OP to be more sophisticated with making a decision like this. Having such a large family and ultimately preparing to take on a lot of debt without a guarantee is a pretty big gamble IMHO. Your situation is very different. You have enough time to make the jump already. Whats the hold up btw? ;)
 
SeanD said:
Im not saying that at all. Im saying for the OP to be more sophisticated with making a decision like this. Having such a large family and ultimately preparing to take on a lot of debt without a guarantee is a pretty big gamble IMHO. Your situation is very different. You have enough time to make the jump already. Whats the hold up btw? ;)
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If it doesn't work out soon I could always do FA. right?
 
SeanD said:
Im not saying that at all. Im saying for the OP to be more sophisticated with making a decision like this. Having such a large family and ultimately preparing to take on a lot of debt without a guarantee is a pretty big gamble IMHO. Your situation is very different. You have enough time to make the jump already. Whats the hold up btw? ;)
Click to expand...
There is that.
 
SeanD said:
Oh jeez, dont be a dingleberry. I was genuinely curious on why you haven't made the jump.
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Family issues but I'm still making progress. Just slow. 8). Think your kid is needy. Let them be 16 and 9!
 
I looked at ATP - and I am sure that there are a lot of great pilots out there that went to ATP and did great - but please read the fine print about instructing with them in a "guaranteed job". Only a few people get the instructing jobs. The rest get moved to a call center in Florida and answer phones all day until a job opens up. That might be years, as the best instructor candidates get moved to the CFI jobs. Until then, you are answering phones and scheduling flights for $12/hr and not accumulating any flying time.


"Candidates who demonstrate the highest level of aptitude will be placed into multi-engine and single-engine flight instructor positions. Candidates who need additional preparation will be offered ground school, simulator instructor, and scheduling positions while continuing to build proficiency."
 
SeanD said:
I think A300 is spot on. That is really the best advice you're going to get. Please dont take this the wrong way but timing really isn't on your side. I would do my best to try and look at this from a realistic point of view. From what Im reading, you would be taking out loans to fund your training? If so, dont put yourself and your family in financial jeopardy. Dont buy into that pilot shortage crap as a source to fuel any part of your decision. To me its a red herring and isn't going to do anything positive for the industry. If I were you I would just bang out that PPL, maybe get an IR and have some fun flying airplanes.
Click to expand...

That really is the most important aspect of this whole deal - staying out of debt. I know for some guys that apparently wasn't/isn't an issue somehow. But for me debt was just not acceptable, and I was in a position to pay as I went for my training. When I made the jump to flight instruction, I paid everything off and had money saved. It helped immensely, and many years later I'm SO glad I did that. I see some of these guys at my airline with crazy loan payments, and I just don't see how they do it.
 
Count me into the same crowd. Been on JC for a skosh over a year now, and have learned a LOT. I mean... a LOT. The folks here are (for the most part) great. I've got a few years on you (just turned 42), so I don't think that going 121 is in the cards for me, so I'm focusing my efforts on 91/135 (but hoping for 91).

Life is what you make it. Sometimes things are out of your control. But my daily happiness is generally in my control. Staring at four beige walls at 25,000 lines of code all day pays the bills... but it sure the heck doesn't light my fire. So, I totally hear you on that account.

Based on a lot of feedback here, I'm skipping the massive debt that goes with a school like ATP and keeping the fairly lucrative web development job while I work my way through my ratings. I also need to figure out how to sneak a degree in there somewhere, since from what I understand, most corporate outlets won't even look at a non-degreed pilot. I figure that getting my ratings first (and potentially buying at least a share of an airplane) and building hours first, then getting my degree (while still building hours) would be the best way to go... while still providing a salary to the house. Might take me longer... hell, might never actually make it into a shiny jeeeeeeeeet. But I'll definitely try to have the most fun with it along the way.

Good luck to you. It'll be fun for all of us career changers to keep up with each other here.
 
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