Another 61.58 Question

dustoff17

dustoff17

Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
Situation: Flying (both as crew and single pilot) a Citation CJ3 for a private company. My last recurrent training was in Aug 2013.

Question: When am I REQUIRED to go back to recurrent training?

I'm a bit confused about the difference between 61.58 (a)(1) and (a)(2). Please don't answer with "12 months"......

I think that I drop dead at the end of this month as far as annual recurrent training (FSI) is concerned. At first, my boss first said that I can continue to fly until the end of Sep and still be current. I agreed with him with the restriction that, while technically current, I couldn't fly passengers (61.58 h/i). This prompted him to re-read the Reg and now believes I can go until NEXT year (61.58a2) and still be good.

I'm more than a little confused....
Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you for your time here...

@MidlifeFlyer, any thoughts?
 
§61.58 Pilot-in-command proficiency check: Operation of an aircraft that requires more than one pilot flight crewmember or is turbojet-powered. (BE-300F and CJ3)

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, to serve as pilot in command of an aircraft that is type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or is turbojet-powered, a person must—

(1) Within the preceding 12 calendar months, complete a pilot-in-command proficiency check in an aircraft that is type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or is turbojet-powered; and

MY TAKE: (In any aircraft that meets this definition.)

(2) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, complete a pilot-in-command proficiency check in the particular type of aircraft in which that person will serve as pilot in command, that is type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or is turbojet-powered.

MY TAKE: (in the specific make and model)

What seems to really drive recurrent requirements, to me anyway, is insurance requirements. They seem to be more restrictive sometimes.

I used to fly for an owner who didn't care about regs, just how it affected his pocketbook.
 
As far as 61.58 checks and part 91 flying my understanding is as above. Once every 24 months in the specific type if flying two types at the same time.


TP
 
I agree with you.....at one time I was flying 13 different model/versions of aircraft. I completed recurrent every year but switched between models every other year to meet this requirement.

FOLLOW UP QUESTION: In order to "save money", my boss also likes to push the recurrent to every 13 months "because the Regulation allows you to train either the month prior up to the month after your last recurrent", I agree that you can to this but, again, are restricted from flying with passengers.

Am I understanding this correctly?
 
dustoff17 said:
FOLLOW UP QUESTION: In order to "save money", my boss also likes to push the recurrent to every 13 months .....
Click to expand...

It always roasts my chunks to hear about folks who are wealthy enough to own their own jet, but are so cheap on the details. Either you got it, and accept it, or get something less expensive to operate..... I'm then told that "I got that way by being cheap".....Yeah, well get over it. /Rant
 
As far as the 13 month, yes you can check in that month but it does not add a month. If you are due in April of 2013 you could have checked in May, but your next check would still have been due in April of 2014. If you check in May of 2014 (month 13), your next check is still due in April of 2015.

Reference 61.58(i).
 
We do things differently in 135, but if I'm reading 61.58(h) correctly, the only time that you can act as PIC after month 12 is to actually do a proficiency check (no pax or property nor night). I don't think you could act as PIC for any other turbo-jet flying.

(The 135 reg reads differently - reference 135.301(a). We can carry pax in month 13.)
 
SteveC said:
We do things differently in 135, but if I'm reading 61.58(h) correctly, the only time that you can act as PIC after month 12 is to actually do a proficiency check (no pax or property nor night). I don't think you could act as PIC for any other turbo-jet flying.

(The 135 reg reads differently - reference 135.301(a). We can carry pax in month 13.)
Click to expand...
Oh, I misunderstood that subparagraph! So I can't fly the jeeeeet after the 12th month as PIC (unless it's for the actual check ride)?
 
That's the way that I read it, but again I'm a 135 guy. There might be another paragraph tucked away in Part 61 that affects this, or I might be misunderstanding. Probably some others here can give a more confident answer than I can.
 
Whatever comes of this always protect your certificates as no one else will.
Especially the one with the checkbook.
 
dustoff17 said:
Now I'm all kinds of confused........:confused2:
Click to expand...
I chose 121 so I don't have to stretch the regs to keep some cheap a-- shiny-jet owner happy. Just my .02, but your boss sounds like a dirt bag. I'd get outa there. But hey, you gotta pay the bills...
 
dustoff17 said:
Now I'm all kinds of confused........:confused2:
Click to expand...
Which part?

61.58(I) introduces the ability to do the check early with a benefit but with a penalty for taking it late. The penalty for taking it late seems a bit weird to me but I don't think you can safely interpret it a grace period in which you can continue to fly after the expiration of the 12th month. At least I'm not aware of any official guidance or interpretation saying so.
 
pilotmec said:
Yea, aren't the regs great!
Click to expand...
Yes. Yes, they are.
According to what I'm reading in this letter, this Reg was written before the thought of single pilot turbojet operations occurred. Therefore the 61.58 Pilot Proficiency requirement does NOT apply to pilots operating single pilot in a single pilot type certificated aircraft (assuming all required equipment is installed and operational). So I can drive on fat, dumb, and happy for the rest of my career without another check ride as long as I don't fly with another crew member. Sounds a bit strange.........

99driver said:
I chose 121 so I don't have to stretch the regs to keep some cheap a-- shiny-jet owner happy. Just my .02, but your boss sounds like a dirt bag. I'd get outa there. But hey, you gotta pay the bills...
Click to expand...
This situation is an anomaly; he's a good boss that is very sensitive to family time and needs. He wants to save money any way he can as was mentioned above. This is a very small part of corporate operations. I've seen it before.

Here, I make better than average money, 27 over-nights last YEAR, and I spend a LOT of time with my family. This is a great job....wouldn't trade it.......
 
A pilot may be typed
dustoff17 said:
Yes. Yes, they are.
According to what I'm reading in this letter, this Reg was written before the thought of single pilot turbojet operations occurred. Therefore the 61.58 Pilot Proficiency requirement does NOT apply to pilots operating single pilot in a single pilot type certificated aircraft (assuming all required equipment is installed and operational). So I can drive on fat, dumb, and happy for the rest of my career without another check ride as long as I don't fly with another crew member. Sounds a bit strange.........


This situation is an anomaly; he's a good boss that is very sensitive to family time and needs. He wants to save money any way he can as was mentioned above. This is a very small part of corporate operations. I've seen it before.

Here, I make better than average money, 27 over-nights last YEAR, and I spend a LOT of time with my family. This is a great job....wouldn't trade it.......
Click to expand...

Tell him a well trained pilot is a safer pilot and will have a better chance of getting him home to his family safely.
Money spent well is worth it.
 
pilotmec said:
A pilot may be typed


Tell him a well trained pilot is a safer pilot and will have a better chance of getting him home to his family safely.
Money spent well is worth it.
Click to expand...
He'll spend the money. I told him I would fly right seat only (no PIC) after the end of Aug. As of today, I go to training on 18 Sep.

SFLAX said:
Do you have to use FSI? I have a hook up for you if you don't have to.
Click to expand...
We go to FSI because he get a huge break on his insurance; it's all about the money, right? Thank you anyway. How are things going up there?
 
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