An eyeopening article about the pilots of Mesaba (Northwest Airlink)
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EDUC8-or
Well-Known Member
Sorry guys, but $31K a year isn't peanuts like you're making it out to be. I think too many people get into flying because they like to fly, but they also see dollar signs. The one and only thing that will help you truly "make it" as a pilot is a passion for aviation. You have to love to fly to put up with all of the other BS that comes with the job.
I'm in my 8th year as a teacher and I doubt that I'll break $30,000 this year. I live very comfortably, thank you. No, I don't have kids. But I've taught with quite a few single moms who somehow scraped enough money to get by. I LOVE to teach and that's what keeps me at it while my buddies from college are making 4 times what I do today. I'm happy doing what I do.
Teaching is a career, not a job. It is socially acceptable to pay a teacher squat. It just sort of "happened" over the years. I see the same thing happening to the salaries of a pilot. I'm hoping that trend will reverse.
I feel for the people out there who have kids, bills, and other financial obligations and don't know if they will have a job in a month. And it stinks to go somewhere you feel might be a stepping stone and end up there for years. No one wants to work 2 jobs just to pay bills. But I've seen plenty other people get by on less.
I'm in my 8th year as a teacher and I doubt that I'll break $30,000 this year. I live very comfortably, thank you. No, I don't have kids. But I've taught with quite a few single moms who somehow scraped enough money to get by. I LOVE to teach and that's what keeps me at it while my buddies from college are making 4 times what I do today. I'm happy doing what I do.
Teaching is a career, not a job. It is socially acceptable to pay a teacher squat. It just sort of "happened" over the years. I see the same thing happening to the salaries of a pilot. I'm hoping that trend will reverse.
I feel for the people out there who have kids, bills, and other financial obligations and don't know if they will have a job in a month. And it stinks to go somewhere you feel might be a stepping stone and end up there for years. No one wants to work 2 jobs just to pay bills. But I've seen plenty other people get by on less.
A player from the local NHL team was suspended for two games
.He lost about $ 33,000 in wages.This 22 yrs old player has 3 yrs experience in the Ligue and plays about 20 minutes per game/////////his salary is just avarage however he makes in a couple of days what the Mesaba pilot makes in one year////////MAKES SENSE TO ME
EDUC8-or
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A player from the local NHL team was suspended for two games .He lost about $ 33,000 in wages.This 22 yrs old player has 3 yrs experience in the Ligue and plays about 20 minutes per game/////////his salary is just avarage however he makes in a couple of days what the Mesaba pilot makes in one year////////MAKES SENSE TO ME
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm such a hypocrite, because I'm a sports nut. But professional athletes make WAY too much. Would you want 1/2 these guys as your PIC? Would you let them teach your kids? (sorry, still on the teacher soapbox
) I know negative news gets publicity and that's why we hear so many bad stories about professional athletes, but some are just ridiculous. I guess back in school I should have forgotten about the books and concentrated solely on athletics. I could own my own jet by now.
A player from the local NHL team was suspended for two games .He lost about $ 33,000 in wages.This 22 yrs old player has 3 yrs experience in the Ligue and plays about 20 minutes per game/////////his salary is just avarage however he makes in a couple of days what the Mesaba pilot makes in one year////////MAKES SENSE TO ME
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm such a hypocrite, because I'm a sports nut. But professional athletes make WAY too much. Would you want 1/2 these guys as your PIC? Would you let them teach your kids? (sorry, still on the teacher soapbox
Wesjet 737-700 FOs make about $35000 CAD/year up here (27kish) before profit sharing and they seem to manage. Some even have families. Of course cost of living may vary in different areas, but you just have to manage your money wisely, although the guy's situation is not good.
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
[ QUOTE ]
Teaching is a career, not a job. It is socially acceptable to pay a teacher squat. It just sort of "happened" over the years. I see the same thing happening to the salaries of a pilot. I'm hoping that trend will reverse.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not socially aceptable in my book. Teachers, cops, etc. should be paid more - plain and simple. Standing by and saying "I do this because I love it" is not a justification it's an open-ended excuse for management/school boards/whoever to pay less and less. If the people they are hirign do it because they love it what's the motivation to pay more? Answer: none. And they don't.
Sooner or later you have to stand up and fight for your profession (not you individually, I'm using the "greater" you, Educ-8r).
Sports people make what they make because they demand it and are not ashemd to demand it - they strike (the most absurd and ridiculous abuse of unions if I've ever seen one) yet they get what they want. Why then should teachers, cops, pilots, coal miners, computer programers, whoever be any different?
Teaching is a career, not a job. It is socially acceptable to pay a teacher squat. It just sort of "happened" over the years. I see the same thing happening to the salaries of a pilot. I'm hoping that trend will reverse.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not socially aceptable in my book. Teachers, cops, etc. should be paid more - plain and simple. Standing by and saying "I do this because I love it" is not a justification it's an open-ended excuse for management/school boards/whoever to pay less and less. If the people they are hirign do it because they love it what's the motivation to pay more? Answer: none. And they don't.
Sooner or later you have to stand up and fight for your profession (not you individually, I'm using the "greater" you, Educ-8r).
Sports people make what they make because they demand it and are not ashemd to demand it - they strike (the most absurd and ridiculous abuse of unions if I've ever seen one) yet they get what they want. Why then should teachers, cops, pilots, coal miners, computer programers, whoever be any different?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
My aunt is a 3rd grade teacher in SoCal and she made $67,500 last year. This is a very exceptable wage, even if the cost of living is really high.
I think teachers deserve this. More states should look at CA adopt some form of a higher pay scale.
I think teachers deserve this. More states should look at CA adopt some form of a higher pay scale.
n77j
Well-Known Member
Well after all the aviation world is "the survival of the fittest"- I have spent thousands of money on flight traning, work like a horse in the ramp, clean planes that look like a damp,worked pretty much full-time for the most part to earn my B.S . If i get a job as an airline pilot i will take it but if i find anything that pays better other than aviation, i will take the latter. Eventually, it all comes down to one thing as you get older-we are all about the money and you lose the love for what you enjoy doing!
EDUC8-or
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Teachers, cops, etc. should be paid more - plain and simple. Standing by and saying "I do this because I love it" is not a justification it's an open-ended excuse for management/school boards/whoever to pay less and less.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. But you have to have a love and passion to make it your career.
[ QUOTE ]
My aunt is a 3rd grade teacher in SoCal and she made $67,500 last year
[/ QUOTE ]
There are some states and cities that pay teachers very well. It's much more competitive to land a job there. It's like settling for Jolly Fatts Airlines instead of going for the majors.
Fortunately, most pilots are unionized and I don't think they will sit by and watch their salaries go down the tubes.
Teachers, cops, etc. should be paid more - plain and simple. Standing by and saying "I do this because I love it" is not a justification it's an open-ended excuse for management/school boards/whoever to pay less and less.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. But you have to have a love and passion to make it your career.
[ QUOTE ]
My aunt is a 3rd grade teacher in SoCal and she made $67,500 last year
[/ QUOTE ]
There are some states and cities that pay teachers very well. It's much more competitive to land a job there. It's like settling for Jolly Fatts Airlines instead of going for the majors.
Fortunately, most pilots are unionized and I don't think they will sit by and watch their salaries go down the tubes.
You people are forgetting one thing. Why are sports players paid so much??????? Because fans give so much money to the teams. What is the team supposed to do? They generate business by doing well. Fans give them money. Therefore, the players get paid by the companies, who are in turn paid by the fans.
Teachers don't get paid squat. Nor do cops, firemen, etc. But the only way to raise their salary, unless the school is private, is to either raise taxes or redistribute money from other government programs.
Pilots aren't getting paid much. How could they be paid millions, though, when the airline industry is hardly profitable, with regards to amount of revenue they bring. The airlines are lucky to make a 2%-5% profit at the end of the year. Read the financial statements. Sure I agree that corporate execs, such as ex-execs Leo and Don, make a hell lot. The only execs who should have the millions are the ones who put their own 'risk' capital to fund the company (i.e. the airline founders, or entreprenuers such as Bill Gates). It is all a matter of supply and demand. You may bitch to the airlines about pilot pay, but if the airline can't pay it, how can you make money appear from thin air? Say Leo Mullin took 20 million per year from his salary and divided it among all the employees of Delta (60,000+ according to Delta's website at http://www.delta.com/home/press_url/dal_stats_facts/index.jsp) that would only amount to an increase of $333.33 per employee per year, only a 1% increase in pay to a pilot paid $30,000 per year. The solution lays not in these high-paid execs, who again I agree make a dispropotionatly high income in relation to the risk they take. The simple fact is that the airline business is not very profitable with all the overhead expenses.
So, yes many people make a higher income or lower income than they should. Though it may seem unfair, it is just a matter of simple economics-supply and demand.
Plus look at this, pilot and all other employees, other than those furloughed, are still making a salary, dispite the fact that the airlines is and has been losing money. The owners of the airlines, however have been taking the hit and losing money with the company. Who are the owners? The stockholders.
Teachers don't get paid squat. Nor do cops, firemen, etc. But the only way to raise their salary, unless the school is private, is to either raise taxes or redistribute money from other government programs.
Pilots aren't getting paid much. How could they be paid millions, though, when the airline industry is hardly profitable, with regards to amount of revenue they bring. The airlines are lucky to make a 2%-5% profit at the end of the year. Read the financial statements. Sure I agree that corporate execs, such as ex-execs Leo and Don, make a hell lot. The only execs who should have the millions are the ones who put their own 'risk' capital to fund the company (i.e. the airline founders, or entreprenuers such as Bill Gates). It is all a matter of supply and demand. You may bitch to the airlines about pilot pay, but if the airline can't pay it, how can you make money appear from thin air? Say Leo Mullin took 20 million per year from his salary and divided it among all the employees of Delta (60,000+ according to Delta's website at http://www.delta.com/home/press_url/dal_stats_facts/index.jsp) that would only amount to an increase of $333.33 per employee per year, only a 1% increase in pay to a pilot paid $30,000 per year. The solution lays not in these high-paid execs, who again I agree make a dispropotionatly high income in relation to the risk they take. The simple fact is that the airline business is not very profitable with all the overhead expenses.
So, yes many people make a higher income or lower income than they should. Though it may seem unfair, it is just a matter of simple economics-supply and demand.
Plus look at this, pilot and all other employees, other than those furloughed, are still making a salary, dispite the fact that the airlines is and has been losing money. The owners of the airlines, however have been taking the hit and losing money with the company. Who are the owners? The stockholders.
stultus
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Moonlighting from Mesaba
"Can you live off of $400 a week?" Barrett asked. "That's a question I'd love to ask the CEO."
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm....I do it and I've managed to get a private license, pay off my student loans from college, travel the world, and pay off the good chunk of a car (albeit used).
In this article the pilots as being little arrogant--there's plenty of people in MN making less and getting by. The author could have done a better job of showing how these pilot are highly trained professionals who have had to make big sacrifices (there was not one reference to ramen
) to get where they are, and are now working for a company making bank and not sharing it--they are making less than many of their colleagues at other "regional" carriers.
Best of luck to the Mesaba pilots out there. I'll be showing my solidarity by avoiding NW.
Moonlighting from Mesaba
"Can you live off of $400 a week?" Barrett asked. "That's a question I'd love to ask the CEO."
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm....I do it and I've managed to get a private license, pay off my student loans from college, travel the world, and pay off the good chunk of a car (albeit used).
In this article the pilots as being little arrogant--there's plenty of people in MN making less and getting by. The author could have done a better job of showing how these pilot are highly trained professionals who have had to make big sacrifices (there was not one reference to ramen
Best of luck to the Mesaba pilots out there. I'll be showing my solidarity by avoiding NW.
PhotoPilot
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think photopilot know's about that one, being a poor CFI.
[/ QUOTE ]
WHOA! Back the truck up! You're getting ahead of me!
I'm just a lowly Comm-Instrument student. Hopefully I'll be a CFI soon, but not yet . . . Thanks for the vote of confidence, though!
-Photopilot
I think photopilot know's about that one, being a poor CFI.
[/ QUOTE ]
WHOA! Back the truck up! You're getting ahead of me!
I'm just a lowly Comm-Instrument student. Hopefully I'll be a CFI soon, but not yet . . . Thanks for the vote of confidence, though!
-Photopilot
[ QUOTE ]
now working for a company making bank and not sharing it
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. Look at the financial statements for Mesaba. They only made 0.9% 2002-2003, 1.9% profit 2001-2002, and a 4.5% profit 2000-2001. That is horrible. From a financial perspective, no company is doing well when making only this percentage of profit. For every dollar of revenue last year, the company only took in 9/10th of one penny or $0.009 profit for every dollar brought into the company. The profitability was only 4.3 million in 2002-2003, 7.8 million in 2001-2002, and 19.8 million 2000-2001. Though that might seem like alot, making $31.9 million in three years is horrible when you brought in $1.3 billion of revenue over 3 years. If a mom and pop store or most companies made these profitability margins, most would not be in business.
now working for a company making bank and not sharing it
[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. Look at the financial statements for Mesaba. They only made 0.9% 2002-2003, 1.9% profit 2001-2002, and a 4.5% profit 2000-2001. That is horrible. From a financial perspective, no company is doing well when making only this percentage of profit. For every dollar of revenue last year, the company only took in 9/10th of one penny or $0.009 profit for every dollar brought into the company. The profitability was only 4.3 million in 2002-2003, 7.8 million in 2001-2002, and 19.8 million 2000-2001. Though that might seem like alot, making $31.9 million in three years is horrible when you brought in $1.3 billion of revenue over 3 years. If a mom and pop store or most companies made these profitability margins, most would not be in business.
stultus
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I live in NY. 34,000 gross per year won't get you CRAP!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
uhhhh...none of these guys are based in NY...
And it's all your frame of mind and ability to budget and be fiscally responsible. And it's not like I live in Podunk, USA here just outside LA where an average 3 bedroom house is around $400,000. Though that is tangental to the topic at hand here. The point of my original comments were that the author of the article did not do a good job of showing the plight of the Mesaba pilot, and will probably garner little sympathy for the strike among the general public. Though maybe I'm wrong, who knows...I'm looking at it from a perspective of a professional roughly the same age and earning the same wage as the pilots in the story.
I live in NY. 34,000 gross per year won't get you CRAP!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
uhhhh...none of these guys are based in NY...
And it's all your frame of mind and ability to budget and be fiscally responsible. And it's not like I live in Podunk, USA here just outside LA where an average 3 bedroom house is around $400,000. Though that is tangental to the topic at hand here. The point of my original comments were that the author of the article did not do a good job of showing the plight of the Mesaba pilot, and will probably garner little sympathy for the strike among the general public. Though maybe I'm wrong, who knows...I'm looking at it from a perspective of a professional roughly the same age and earning the same wage as the pilots in the story.
donttouchanything
New Member
I live in the Bay area (California) $34,000 will get you homeless.
PhotoPilot
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
When you do have kids let's revisit this topic because you'll then understand how much they truly cost.
Car payments? Yeah going out and buying a 5 year sedan is great and all - IF you have the cash to do so - most regional pilots don't. If each spouse has a $5000 car the payments are going to be around $200 a month total. Add $100 a month for insurance for both. Like most everybody else I have student loans. I think mine are a little lower than most but let's use my payment of $195/month. If both spouses have one there's another $400 a month. What does food cost for a young family of 4?? Let's say $100 a week - which is on the very low side. Depending on how far you drive to work there's another $190 a month for gas(1 16 gal fill up each week for each car at $1.50 a gal). . .what would be a fair estimate of a 4 bedroom apartment "in the slums" up that direction??? $650 a month? Add utilities, clothes, 'stuff' for the kids, etc. etc. etc. Don't forget you have to save some for when you WILL get furloughed and/or on strike. . . I bet it's getting close to maybe about $3000 - with two people bringing home $400 a week that's cutting it awful close. Is it impossible? No. Do people do it everyday? Yes. But add in a couple of unexpected bills or anything above the most very basic expenses I outlined and the young airline family is screwed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do understand what it costs to have children. If I had any I wouldn't have decided to become a professional pilot: There's no way I could have afforded it!
I'm also not talking about two $5000 cars. I'm talking about two $2500 cars at the most. I've got a '95 Subaru Legacy AWD wagon with just over 100,000 on it that I picked up for $2200. It took a lot of searching, but we found it. My wife's car is a '96 Buick Century with just over 100,000 miles and we got it for $2600. Same thing - it took a good three weeks to find it, but we did. In the past we've looked hard and found great sub-$1000 cars that ran for years and only needed a few hundred dollars in repairs while we had them.
When you add in all of the other costs outlined in the quote above, you're in the category of folks who should probably not look at flying professionally any time soon. Instead, find another job that will cover your costs, fly for fun on the weekends, and think about getting a flying gig when you can afford to make the transition. The industry is wicked rough and if you carry that kind of monetary commitment, your setting yourself up to get burned.
While I'm on my soapbox, I just have to ask: what the heck does anyone need a $400,000 house for anyway?! Why does our society measure success by the value of a person's cars, homes, property, and clothes? I have a lot of friends who are 'successful' but unhappy as all get out. They spend every waking minute paying for their success at work and never have the chance to enjoy life. As soon as they get a raise, they're buying more stuff, getting a newer, bigger, more expensive house, and still working just as much. What's wrong with having enough? Why is everyone so intent on having excess? My wife and I live very simply. She's a massage therapist who is currently working at Pier 1 (thanks to our cross-country move last September . . .
), I'm an ex-photographer/carpenter turned flight student. We've got plenty of perks (expensive bicycles, camera gear, skis . . . ), but we've also worked hard to cut out the unfullfilling excess. And trust me, if we can do it, ANYONE can! When it comes to survival and getting what you need, $34,000 should be plenty.
Are pilots worth more than they are paid? ABSOLUTELY! Are pilots underappreciated? HECK YES! But, especially for those of us training in the post-9/11 era, we know the score before we log our first hour. It's something that we should be doing because we love it and know that we're going to have to make serious sacrifices to catch our dreams. It's hard, at times it sucks, and we have a right to complain. Infact, we have every right to try and change the way we're compensated and treated. In the meantime, however, we'd be crazy not to live within our means.
We knew what we were getting into if we did even the bare minimum of research . . .
When you do have kids let's revisit this topic because you'll then understand how much they truly cost.
Car payments? Yeah going out and buying a 5 year sedan is great and all - IF you have the cash to do so - most regional pilots don't. If each spouse has a $5000 car the payments are going to be around $200 a month total. Add $100 a month for insurance for both. Like most everybody else I have student loans. I think mine are a little lower than most but let's use my payment of $195/month. If both spouses have one there's another $400 a month. What does food cost for a young family of 4?? Let's say $100 a week - which is on the very low side. Depending on how far you drive to work there's another $190 a month for gas(1 16 gal fill up each week for each car at $1.50 a gal). . .what would be a fair estimate of a 4 bedroom apartment "in the slums" up that direction??? $650 a month? Add utilities, clothes, 'stuff' for the kids, etc. etc. etc. Don't forget you have to save some for when you WILL get furloughed and/or on strike. . . I bet it's getting close to maybe about $3000 - with two people bringing home $400 a week that's cutting it awful close. Is it impossible? No. Do people do it everyday? Yes. But add in a couple of unexpected bills or anything above the most very basic expenses I outlined and the young airline family is screwed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do understand what it costs to have children. If I had any I wouldn't have decided to become a professional pilot: There's no way I could have afforded it!
I'm also not talking about two $5000 cars. I'm talking about two $2500 cars at the most. I've got a '95 Subaru Legacy AWD wagon with just over 100,000 on it that I picked up for $2200. It took a lot of searching, but we found it. My wife's car is a '96 Buick Century with just over 100,000 miles and we got it for $2600. Same thing - it took a good three weeks to find it, but we did. In the past we've looked hard and found great sub-$1000 cars that ran for years and only needed a few hundred dollars in repairs while we had them.
When you add in all of the other costs outlined in the quote above, you're in the category of folks who should probably not look at flying professionally any time soon. Instead, find another job that will cover your costs, fly for fun on the weekends, and think about getting a flying gig when you can afford to make the transition. The industry is wicked rough and if you carry that kind of monetary commitment, your setting yourself up to get burned.
While I'm on my soapbox, I just have to ask: what the heck does anyone need a $400,000 house for anyway?! Why does our society measure success by the value of a person's cars, homes, property, and clothes? I have a lot of friends who are 'successful' but unhappy as all get out. They spend every waking minute paying for their success at work and never have the chance to enjoy life. As soon as they get a raise, they're buying more stuff, getting a newer, bigger, more expensive house, and still working just as much. What's wrong with having enough? Why is everyone so intent on having excess? My wife and I live very simply. She's a massage therapist who is currently working at Pier 1 (thanks to our cross-country move last September . . .
Are pilots worth more than they are paid? ABSOLUTELY! Are pilots underappreciated? HECK YES! But, especially for those of us training in the post-9/11 era, we know the score before we log our first hour. It's something that we should be doing because we love it and know that we're going to have to make serious sacrifices to catch our dreams. It's hard, at times it sucks, and we have a right to complain. Infact, we have every right to try and change the way we're compensated and treated. In the meantime, however, we'd be crazy not to live within our means.
We knew what we were getting into if we did even the bare minimum of research . . .
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