AMR cutting mnore service

av8sean

New Member
Another reminder that carriers with antiquated business models (i.e. huge overhead, overpaid bloated managements, poor fleet planning, and unproductive labor usage) will continue to fall by the wayside. An interesting note, AMR domestic pilots don't really get paid much more then airtran, Jetblue, or Southwest pilots after the concessions they just took. Obviously AMR has bigger problems then labor costs, problems you can blame on an inept management.

-Sean
 

sigmanu499

New Member
I really hope that AMR, UAL and all the rest can make it. In a class I was taking last semester(aviation admin major at CSULA), we talked alot about this issue. The teacher was saying that the airlines can cut pay all they want, but until they increase flight crew and aircraft productivity the pay cuts are only a temp fix. Personally I feel that the pilots earn every penny, do to the sacrafice they and their families make for being on the road alot.
 

MQAAord

Scheherazade
Staff member
"Increase airplane and crew productivity"

Hmm, in my 7 years at the airlines, I saw airplanes fly from 6 am until 10 or 11 pm. The only way those airplanes can be more productive is if we had a overnight freight service (which may or may not be feasable, but it's an idea). As for crew productivity, we flew to the FAR max many more times than we actually had a overnight where we could catch more than 6 or 7 hours of sleep. The legal FAR 'rest' time is 8 hours. So at the time we step off the airplane, we could have to be back at the airport 8 hours from that moment. By the time we wait for the hotel van, get to the hotel, clean up, decompress, you can get maybe, and I mean maybe, 6 hours of sleep before you have to get up, get ready, catch the van, and go back to the airport. Imagine a 4 day trip with every overnight like that? Can we say FATIGUE? We've given all we can. In fact, I personally don't have ANYthing more to give, I already gave 100% of my paycheck and benefits! (Furloughed) All the employees at United could work for free, and the company would STILL be losing money, according to their figures. That is not labor's fault, we've done our part, now it's time to see some trimming in the sheer number of management, eliminate ANY and ALL bonuses for management until such time as the companies are profitable again. The board at Delta that determines how much of a bonus and under what condition bonuses are given decided that since times are bad, they still want management to get bonuses, so they're giving bonuses based on how much 'cost savings' management generates. Therefore by giving concessions, labor is creating 'cost savings' for management, and while line employees hit the street, management gets to line their pockets with a bonus! How nice for them! Not to mention having fully protected retirement (no matter what happens to the company, bankruptcy, etc, they still get their money), complete with pre-paid taxes.

I don't mean to rant and rave, but everytime I hear about management whining that they didn't get enough money from labor it makes me want to spit. We'll gladly share in any burden to help save our companies, but we're tired of being the scapegoat reason that airlines aren't making money. We all need to share equally in making our companies profitable again, and until I see some good faith efforts on behalf of our management , I say the employee concession stand is CLOSED!



Just my 2 cents worth, but since I'm furloughed can you please give them back when you're done?
 

Androol

New Member
I read an article a few months that compared United to Continental. For those of you who don't know, Continental is one of the healthiest major carriers.

Anyway it compared crew utilization, vacation time etc. Basically United pilots flew something like an average of 40 hours per month and had an average of 50 days of vacation per year. The comparable Continental pilot would fly an average of 55 hours per month and had 35 vacation days per year. United had the 737, 727, A320/319, 757/767, 777 and 747 - six types. Continental had four types, MD-80, 737, 757/767, and 777 (the 767 and 757 sharing the same type rating have been put in the same category). The fewer types means fewer pilots in transition training at any given point. Expand those utilization numbers across 5,000 to 10,000 pilots and it ammounts to staggering numbers.

The operation inefficiency of some of the major carriers is what is drowning them, not pilot pay scales. I saw another analysis that said something to the effect that Americans pilots could work for free and it would not be enough to get the company to turn a profit.
 

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
For those of you who don't know, Continental is one of the healthiest major carriers.

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant to ask about this a few weeks ago. Kudo's to Continental!

How is it that they are doing so well?? Anyone know?

You haven't heard a PEEP out of them post-9/11 and in this industry - no news is good news. Seems like when you hear about AA or UAL it's in reference to Chapter 11, or if you hear about DAL it's about reductions in pilot salaries....

...but, not a THING about CAL!!

May have to give CAL a second thought (one day....down the road... a long, long time from now...
).
 

Androol

New Member
Well, CAL isn't doing great. Gordon Bethune puts it like this "We're winning the three legged horse race".

I don't know the details of it specifically, but my guess is better crew utilization based on what I said before. A simple fleet structure. A hub and spoke system based on hubs in major markets providing huge O&D traffic, not just conecting traffic.

I think they only have something like 1,800 people on furlough right now, and that is across the board, not just pilots.

I think the preliminary numbers from the second quarter show a small profit, and advance bookings are showing better numbers for the third quarter.

From what I see of them, they are a pretty decent place to work.
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to rant and rave, but everytime I hear about management whining that they didn't get enough money from labor it makes me want to spit. We'll gladly share in any burden to help save our companies, but we're tired of being the scapegoat reason that airlines aren't making money. We all need to share equally in making our companies profitable again, and until I see some good faith efforts on behalf of our management , I say the employee concession stand is CLOSED!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. The reason why airlines are losing money right now is simple. It's called the business cycle.

And I am thoroughly disgusted by management saying to their employees, well, we're going to have to lay folks off, and cut everyone else's pay, but we're going to give ourselves fat bonuses that are 100 times more than the so called overpaid labor gets. And we deserve it because we need it to make sure that we retain the skilled management that steered our company right into Chapter 11 or near it. UAL's CEO, while calling for paycuts and implementing furloughs, got a $3 million bonus. For what? Walking down the street to the courthouse to file Chapter 11?

As for the jokers on Wall Street who seem to still think that Southwest is non-union, the reason they hate the unions at airlines so much is because they're among the few unions with a little bit of clout left. And they can't stand that. Those jokers won't be happy until we're all making $8.00 an hour at Walmart with no benefits.

Funny thing is, when I came out of college, I was pretty anti-union, thinking that skilled workers didn't need any unions because they were worth so much to their employer. After a few times around the block where I learned to employers, we're nothing but expendable assets to be used up and dumped, just like a paper clip or stapler, I am now one of the most pro-union, the hell with management people out there.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[, I am now one of the most pro-union, the hell with management people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unions aren't squeaky-clean themselves. Anyone would be fooling themselves if they thought so.

Personally, I distrust both.
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Unions aren't squeaky-clean themselves. Anyone would be fooling themselves if they thought so.

Personally, I distrust both.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly won't say that unions are squeaky clean, but all in all, I'd much rather work at a place that has one than one that does not.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[, I am now one of the most pro-union, the hell with management people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unions aren't squeaky-clean themselves. Anyone would be fooling themselves if they thought so.

Personally, I distrust both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because I threatened to break your kneecaps once, Mikey?

Besides, me and the rest of the Domerock Place cartel have been lookin' for ya... Especially Eric "Two Fingers" Wildung...
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[, I am now one of the most pro-union, the hell with management people out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unions aren't squeaky-clean themselves. Anyone would be fooling themselves if they thought so.

Personally, I distrust both.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because I threatened to break your kneecaps once, Mikey?

Besides, me and the rest of the Domerock Place cartel have been lookin' for ya... Especially Eric "Two Fingers" Wildung...

[/ QUOTE ]

The Domerock house was cool.

I'd forgotten about the original Soprano himself: Eric Wildung. Chain smoker CFI that wore a leather jacket, even in the middle of summer!

Whatever became of him?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]


The Domerock house was cool.

I'd forgotten about the original Soprano himself: Eric Wildung. Chain smoker CFI that wore a leather jacket, even in the middle of summer!

Whatever became of him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Domerock was the bomb! Too bad we had bitchy neighbors.

Eric's living in PRC and is working for either DHL or Airborne. One of my friends at Delta that commutes from PRC to DFW sees Eric all the time. She says he's the same old "Yo Jack, I soaked up Philly like a sponge" Eric.

Too bad Andrew "Dice" Clay did such a poor impression of Eric!
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[
Domerock was the bomb! Too bad we had bitchy neighbors.



[/ QUOTE ]

No different than the classic "Riddle bitches" that lived below us in Antelope.
 
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