Ameriflight

Well it is also the quickest and easiest way to get behind the airplane during sim profiles. How can somebody possibly concentrate on flying when they have this completely new way to operate an aircraft. Flows have to be done right then, and the checklist has to be completed right here. No ifs ands or buts. Oh and lets add emergencies to it as well.

It's no wonder it turns pilots who are probably have all the right skills, to turn into mush. Some can quickly adapt, some can't. But that's why I feel like it isn't a true training department. Maybe it has changed, maybe it hasn't. But the old "training department" was more of a condescending checking department.
 
There are some good people in the training department. I think I have crossed paths with @Swedican and he seems to be a good guy. Very intelligent. There are some other good people as well. The problem is that there are some bad ones. There are instructors that sit and laugh about how many people they have failed in a particular class.

It is like anything else. There are good and there are bad.
 
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I've been through AMFs training in the chieftain, BE99, and metro. I honestly didn't think any of it was that bad. They have you memorize the flows so you don't spend a ton of time in the sim or aircraft figuring out where switches are. ERAU does the same thing for a C172. Learn the easy stuff outside of the aircraft so it goes faster when you are in the aircraft. If you don't want to put in the effort when you know what the expectation is when you show up for class then it's your own damn fault for struggling in training.

At least you guys don't have to deal with Bob anymore. That guy was a piece of work!
 
Boyington said:
There are some good people in the training department. I think I have crossed paths with @Swedican and he seems to be a good guy. Very intelligent. There are some other good people as well. The problem is that there are some bad ones. There are instructors that sit and laugh about how many people they have failed in a particular class.

It is like anything else. There are good and there are bad.
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Ya I know a few guys that are great guys. But there is a culture of elitism within the training department that stands to go away.
 
I agree that learning a new airplane, coupled with flows can be a difficult under taking. I will admit that I didn't have the easiest time adapting during Sims. I will also admit, though, that I could have done more to prepare. Knowing what I know now, I offer that advice to everyone who comes in.

I know that the old ground school materials didn't consist of a whole lot: there is a new ground packet for the 99 that gets sent out to new hires (came out at the beginning of this year) that seems to connect a lot more of the dots. The PA31 packet seems to be a good start as well. There are expanded procedures checklists at the back of the SOPs, in addition to informational pages that premise the flows to explain the nature of that phase of flight.

The ground school supplements everything sent out (or it can just provide you with all of the information). Once the trainees go out on the line, they again receive ground training with a training captain during their layovers. I don't really see an issue with ground training - if there's a systems issue during sim training, it seems to me that most of the instructors try to help the students come to the conclusion on their own.

The problem that really occurs most at AMF's sim training is a basic understanding of instrument procedures and scan. The guys/gals who come in with a glass cockpit background struggle to get their scan back. Extra Sims are already built into the program, but the problem here, is staffing. The training department doesn't have the amount of resources it needs to re-teach scan and instrument procedures (to the amount necessary for some of our applicants) in addition to normal 135 Sim training and ground school.

What aggravates me most, is when it's obvious to me that an applicant hasn't taken the time to study or review information at all. It's a complete waste of my time and seems like an entitlement factor of "everything should be given to me." AMF is not the only place seeing that mindset these days either, it's all over.

Yes, I can sit there behind someone's shoulder and go over the same flow 30x, but am I training them anymore or am I studying for them at this point? I will gladly coach people through flows and procedures, do demonstrations, and assist with learning, but it's not my job to hold their hand and study for them.
 
Again I think it comes down to how comfortable somebody is in a high performance twin they have never been in, doing flows and checklists like they have never done before. How can somebody properly scan if they are having trouble with flows? Not saying that is the case all of the time. But between nerves, the fast pace, the short timeframe etc etc. I can totally see why certain types of people would have a real hard time with that.

The bottom line is, that is some of the hardest flying anyone will do. The amount of knowledge to prepare for on the aircraft, as well as company procedures, GOM and Op Specs etc. is high. I mean the amount of intimate detail I had to go into about the prop governor on the BE99 was nothing short of insanity. I have never had to explain something in such detail on any other aircraft. I mean who cares about the sequence of raising and lowering the gear on the PA31, what does that do for me as a pilot? Just because these planes are old and are not shiny jets carrying 50 people, they are still presented in an overly complex manor. You have to know everything about them, even things as a pilot you could care less about in reality. Then add on the high stress of sims. Then add the high stress of having to be on time doing online training. I trained guys on an 8 leg run in OAK, that run wasn't for the faint of heart for guys who had been flying the line for months.

I get that the training dept doesn't have the staff, and isn't modeled to sit and teach people, I totally get that. Hell I wen't through it... BUT BUT BUT. When you have to start looking at high failure rates, and other competition in the industry to gauge on, maybe some changes need to be made. I know I had a couple guys mentor me when I got hired and they told me the score. I knew I had to go in knowing the flows hard. Now you have job fairs where AMF is so desperate they are giving guys class dates in a turbine with no sim, a freaking on the spot job. Maybe they have no friends who have been through AMF an they have no clue how prepared they have to be. Tell the guy who did part 141 training from 0 to 250 hours, then instructed to build time, to now do all the studying on his own and become an expert before he arrives. Most do not have that concept. This is an entry level professional flying job. It is a little contradictory that somebody who has seemingly never done this type of flying before, be a self taught expert before he/she arrives.
 
What kind of time frame are people getting before showing up? THAT is where I'm seeing issues later down the line. I had about a month to learn the 99. I would actually practice them in a Baron since they are laid out similar enough.

The Metro, I also had about a month. The Brasilia though, ONE day. I didn't have the flows down until pretty much the checkride... The pass rate for my group was 50% and it seemed everyone had pretty short time frames to deal with as well. The sims went great for me, including the checkride. The oral was definitely a charitable pass I felt like.

I've heard this is the case across the board. Not a training issue. Though, less frustration being expresses towards us would have been nice. This is a flight department issue.

99 training in BUR was good I thought. I can't say the same for the online training. I definitely have no problem tooting my horn in saying I was a MUCH better training captain than the guy that trained me on the exact same runs.

Metro training was great.

The Brasilia was ok, but would have probably been good as well with more than one day to prepare. 2 weeks of training might be a bit too fast as well. How long is Skywest's training?
 
If it weren't for the thing being stupid easy to fly and relatively straight forward, systems wise, I would have failed.

Definitely would have failed the Metro with one days notice
 
You don't find it odd that somebody came from a Metro 99 or 1900, went to an easier airplane with 2 crew and failed?
 
Swedican said:
He said that was the pass rate for his group. Although with 1 day to learn anything, I probably wouldn't have faired the same.

@UAL747400 when did you leave AMF out of curiosity?
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Still here. If you ask around, you'll figure out who I am. Almost everyone in management knows this screen name. :)
 
Inverted said:
You don't find it odd that somebody came from a Metro 99 or 1900, went to an easier airplane with 2 crew and failed?
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Not to get too specific, no. The one FO could have passed with less, what I thought was unnecessary pressure, and the other captain was technically still sitting with the rest of us at answering 70% of the questions correctly.

The issue I had were that the two captains were brought in to be east and west coast TDY guys. Why the HUGE rush? That plane in particular has almost zero turn over.

The issue with the training department in general is still the swearing and expression of frustration in general towards the candidate/trainee. Which does NOTHING for anyone. I actually wanted to resign and then call Burbank to "deal with it, dicks!". Leave that horse crap for after work. I would NEVER treat a trainee that way. But, regarding me atleast, they are rushing people into training when they aren't ready.
 
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tlewis95 said:
If you can't take the time to learn the flows, there isnt much the training department can do with you. Some things can't be taught, you just have to learn it on your own. We have enough to cover without me having to 'teach' flows and callouts. It's not hard. Just learn it, and do it. My last two trainees have been just terrible in this regard and haven't made it through. One of them failed out because they were a terrible pilot with next to no airmanship and the other one (with 5000 some hours) just couldn't handle the flows and callouts. I'm seeing the quality decrease too.
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I did 2 airplanes at amf. Since then I have done 6 more initials on aircraft at 2 different companies. Ranging from FSI to quick and dirty in house. Never have I encountered a more unprofessional training environment. They sould be beyond ashamed of the students performance. The environment is insanely toxic where no learning can possibly occur.
From what I've heard recently nothing at all has changed on the jo or 99.
 
z987k said:
I did 2 airplanes at amf. Since then I have done 6 more initials on aircraft at 2 different companies. Ranging from FSI to quick and dirty in house. Never have I encountered a more unprofessional training environment. They sould be beyond ashamed of the students performance. The environment is insanely toxic where no learning can possibly occur.
From what I've heard recently nothing at all has changed on the jo or 99.
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Toxic is exactly the word I would use. Here's a tip. Those being trained do better when they are encouraged to do well, rather than being ridiculed for not being perfect on the first attempt.
 
Flows aren't hard to learn, regardless of whether you know what a switch does or doesn't do...and actually I think that is a great way to learn the flow. When the • hits the fan and the fan stops turning while you are single pilot in IMC knowing the flow gets the big stuff done quickly, without stealing the precious few brain cells left that are keeping the greasy side down. Trying to relearn an instrument scan while going through checklists in a unstable sim is a recipe for disaster, and I would tend to expect those who try to either wash out or at the very least struggle. Put the time in and learn the flow, be done with it and pass the checkrides. If you can't put in a few hours to learn the flow I doubt you seriously want the job.

I can't speak to Bro training, never went there, but same stuff goes. Man up, learn the systems and flows, and pass the ride. When I went through the metro course it had a ~50% pass/fail rate (or so the rumor was), learned the flow, flew the plane, passed the ride, back to the line. It was challenging training, but it was a fun aircraft to fly.

The AMF training environment may not be sunshine, rainbows, and unicorns, but it is effective at ensuring that pilots are going to be able to safely operate their aircraft in the cargo environment.

Personally, I didn't find it significantly more challenging than my commercial and instrument training.
 
IT IS PRETTY MUCH OFFICIAL. WIGGINS AIRWAYS GOT BOUGHT BY AMERIFLIGHT. THIS INCLUDES THE FEDEX SIDE AS WELL.
 
Does this have anything to do with the new SUS and Chicago bases? If not SUS supposedly started operating this week, and we are supposed to start operating out of Chicago in February.
 
Not really a surprise. I hope the Wiggins crews and staff make out well in the deal. I don't know much about Wiggins, but I know that AMF really needs more good pilots.

We should really get ahead of the game and start random rumors about this. Topic ideas include: seniority list merger fights, the name of the combined company is going to be Wiggiflight or Amerigins, or maybe we can update an old one and say that AMF is buying Great Lakes as well to use their 121 certificate to buy CRJ-200's
 
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