Ameriflight and RACCA on the pilot shortage

mshunter said:
It's not though, as seen by the recent pay raises, hiring bonuses and retention bonuses. We get it, you hate AMF. my advice...let it go.

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Just for the Frozen reference...

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I'll be honest and flame me all you want.

I would love to fly for a living, I really would. But I have a wife, kid, and a mortgage to worry about it. It is just not worth it to me to instruct on the side to build up towards the 1500 hour requirement and I'm sure as heck not going to quit my nice paying job to instruct. It's just not worth it nor am I willing to go through the sacrifice to get to 1500 hours, that is just my truth.

Now if hiring mins were much lower, say 500 hours (I'm talking 121) with advanced training programs etc then I would be all over it. The 1500 hour rule was a knee jerk reaction to an accident, manual flying skills have decreased across the industry and is not a problem limited to low timers.
 
Very amusing to me about all the kiddos complaining about the ATP rule, yet the IFR 135 mins, which is what you REALLY needed to get that first job outside of instructing, has been 1200 hours forever.

There are serious compensation issues at all levels, to be sure, but the true fail is the top end compensation. When I was humpin' to get my time, a typical major job had:

Fab pay....at a inflation adjusted level rate they still haven't matched.
PAID retirement good for life (in theory). Zero contribution. THIS. WAS. HUGE. Anything you saved was gravy/beer money.
Paid heathcare. Paid as in ZERO premium.
Steady/stable-ish progression.
GOOD work rules.

Sure there was the age 60 retirement...but you were set with a 12k/mo pension benefit, so who cared? Go out and enjoy life before you get a cane. Still want to fly? Buy a Cessner.

Not only was this typical, but there were lots of places to go: Besides AMR, DAL and UAL, you had CAL, NWA, TWA, BNF, EAL, AAA, PAL, etc. Lots of places to choose from. Even when a few dropped off after de-regulation, there were still a host of places to go, and cargo to boot. Keep your nose clean, punch your card, and chances are you WOULD wind up somewhere.

These days, not so much. You could find yourself on a career off-ramp fairly easily. Everything is ratcheting down. Money is just OK, and you have to bust your ass to get it. You have to work until forever, and a downturn in the market at the wrong time leaves you working in retirement at Wally Mart. Seems like every day you go to work, some new PITA action comes up.

For anyone even considering this business, there are DARN few career-level options...DAL/UAL/AMR/SWA, plus FDX/UPS. Some off-brands, but even those are few and far-between. Everything else in the biz blows. Sure, some "regionals" claim to be career level, but for the effort, you can have a MUCH better gig doing practically anything else.

People tolerated the regional/commuter/cargo crap-o-la because of the pot of gold and the end. Now that it's been replaced with the pot of bronze, yea, not so much.

So a big hearty "duh" to all the pundits and heavy thinking consultants.

Richman
 
Richman said:
Very amusing to me about all the kiddos complaining about the ATP rule, yet the IFR 135 mins, which is what you REALLY needed to get that first job outside of instructing, has been 1200 hours forever.

There are serious compensation issues at all levels, to be sure, but the true fail is the top end compensation. When I was humpin' to get my time, a typical major job had:

Fab pay....at a inflation adjusted level rate they still haven't matched.
PAID retirement good for life (in theory). Zero contribution. THIS. WAS. HUGE. Anything you saved was gravy/beer money.
Paid heathcare. Paid as in ZERO premium.
Steady/stable-ish progression.
GOOD work rules.

Sure there was the age 60 retirement...but you were set with a 12k/mo pension benefit, so who cared? Go out and enjoy life before you get a cane. Still want to fly? Buy a Cessner.

Not only was this typical, but there were lots of places to go: Besides AMR, DAL and UAL, you had CAL, NWA, TWA, BNF, EAL, AAA, PAL, etc. Lots of places to choose from. Even when a few dropped off after de-regulation, there were still a host of places to go, and cargo to boot. Keep your nose clean, punch your card, and chances are you WOULD wind up somewhere.

These days, not so much. You could find yourself on a career off-ramp fairly easily. Everything is ratcheting down. Money is just OK, and you have to bust your ass to get it. You have to work until forever, and a downturn in the market at the wrong time leaves you working in retirement at Wally Mart. Seems like every day you go to work, some new PITA action comes up.

For anyone even considering this business, there are DARN few career-level options...DAL/UAL/AMR/SWA, plus FDX/UPS. Some off-brands, but even those are few and far-between. Everything else in the biz blows. Sure, some "regionals" claim to be career level, but for the effort, you can have a MUCH better gig doing practically anything else.

People tolerated the regional/commuter/cargo crap-o-la because of the pot of gold and the end. Now that it's been replaced with the pot of bronze, yea, not so much.

So a big hearty "duh" to all the pundits and heavy thinking consultants.

Richman
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Agreed. But it took 40+ years to get this way, so it'll probably take 40+ to see it similar again. It will never be the same though.
 
mshunter said:
I made good money when I did it, in a Metro. Most other companies pay decent for an entry level position too. I can only think of two off the top of my head that pay crap. MAC and AMF. One of them just did something about it. I suspect the other will soon follow suit.
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What's good money?
 
mshunter said:
Agreed. But it took 40+ years to get this way, so it'll probably take 40+ to see it similar again. It will never be the same though.
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It's not just the airline biz. I'm hardly a closet socialist, but the 60's and 70's were the sweet spot for just about everyone.

Then the productivity thing started, and the money men figured out that there was MUCH more money to be earned having people churn money in the 401ks, rather than boring old fixed-income markets, especially when the government practically mandated that you contribute. That forced the cost of capital WAY down, so they could pay the top money guys an butt-load of money to walk away with.

The last true refuge of equity for the common folk was the value in their homes. Then they even figured out how to extract that with home equity loans.

Don't even get me started on debit cards.

Richman
 
Richman said:
Very amusing to me about all the kiddos complaining about the ATP rule, yet the IFR 135 mins, which is what you REALLY needed to get that first job outside of instructing, has been 1200 hours forever.

There are serious compensation issues at all levels, to be sure, but the true fail is the top end compensation. When I was humpin' to get my time, a typical major job had:

Fab pay....at a inflation adjusted level rate they still haven't matched.
PAID retirement good for life (in theory). Zero contribution. THIS. WAS. HUGE. Anything you saved was gravy/beer money.
Paid heathcare. Paid as in ZERO premium.
Steady/stable-ish progression.
GOOD work rules.

Sure there was the age 60 retirement...but you were set with a 12k/mo pension benefit, so who cared? Go out and enjoy life before you get a cane. Still want to fly? Buy a Cessner.

Not only was this typical, but there were lots of places to go: Besides AMR, DAL and UAL, you had CAL, NWA, TWA, BNF, EAL, AAA, PAL, etc. Lots of places to choose from. Even when a few dropped off after de-regulation, there were still a host of places to go, and cargo to boot. Keep your nose clean, punch your card, and chances are you WOULD wind up somewhere.

These days, not so much. You could find yourself on a career off-ramp fairly easily. Everything is ratcheting down. Money is just OK, and you have to bust your ass to get it. You have to work until forever, and a downturn in the market at the wrong time leaves you working in retirement at Wally Mart. Seems like every day you go to work, some new PITA action comes up.

For anyone even considering this business, there are DARN few career-level options...DAL/UAL/AMR/SWA, plus FDX/UPS. Some off-brands, but even those are few and far-between. Everything else in the biz blows. Sure, some "regionals" claim to be career level, but for the effort, you can have a MUCH better gig doing practically anything else.

People tolerated the regional/commuter/cargo crap-o-la because of the pot of gold and the end. Now that it's been replaced with the pot of bronze, yea, not so much.

So a big hearty "duh" to all the pundits and heavy thinking consultants.

Richman
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That pretty-well sums it up.

With the low end sucking and the top end not being what it use to be, I'm pretty sure the next generation of pilots will not be "the best and brightest." They'll be smart enough to look at this field and walk in another direction.
 
Soku39 said:
I just can't bring myself to care. The entire industry has made the prospects becoming a pilot so bad for so long, to the point that an entire generation hasn't bothered to learn how to fly, and those that already can are doing other things. They dug this hole, they can dig themselves out, or go bankrupt because there's no bodies for the seats, either way I don't care.
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I agree, I no longer give a crap. This industry has no one to blame but themselves!
 
Why is it that the loudest people whining are the people who currently have been employed in aviation during a period of unprecedented opportunities for advancement and change, right @KLB ?
 
spbrian said:
Agreed, I would not change anything.
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The guy I'm flying with thinks that I'm mighty confident when I tell him that my current aircraft is the easiest aircraft I've ever trained for and flown.

My response to him was "this plane is fully automated, the systems are simple, and it fixes and secures itself for just about 90% of the issues that may arise. It's one engine performance is better than the metro's 2 Engine performance...with CAWI. Landing this plane is like putting it down on a runway made of pillows. I'm not being confident, I'm just being honest."
 
mshunter said:
I just had to. He's throwing another "poo poo the industry, even when change is happening!" tantrum. Who really gives a crap if management gives whatever reason for it.
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Not sure your reading comprehension is high enough to participate in this conversation.
 
KLB said:
The guy I'm flying with thinks that I'm mighty confident when I tell him that my current aircraft is the easiest aircraft I've ever trained for and flown.

My response to him was "this plane is fully automated, the systems are simple, and it fixes and secures itself for just about 90% of the issues that may arise. It's one engine performance is better than the metro's 2 Engine performance...with CAWI. Landing this plane is like putting it down on a runway made of pillows. I'm not being confident, I'm just being honest."
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Sounds boring! :)

J/K. Boring is good. Boring means I'd get to keep some of my hair!
 
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