American Eagle: A Career Airline

My silly aviation goal is to never be furloughed and so if I were to make the jump it would have to be looking very safe to me (ie. big hiring wave, expansion, strong economy, etc).

Well you certainly got that right. That's silly. It's like saying my personal healthcare goal is to never get food poisoning. Sometimes bad things happen to good people and, as they say, nobody ever won the lottery without buying a ticket.
 
You just don't get it. You are the reason why we make 30 and 60K respectively instead of 50 to 100.

People used to make 100-200k flying DC9s and 737s remember? And that was in 80s and 90s money.

Yeah, and the airlines used to have their competitive efforts controlled, so that a "big" airline had 150-200 airplanes max, instead of the 500-600 fleet airlines of today. Today we have lower pilot wages, but we also have tens of thousands more pilot jobs. Take your pick.
 
I find this debate interesting because the underlying theme is that regional airlines and outsourced flying don’t deserve to exist. That’s a load of crap. Regional airlines exist because some markets do not support the so-called “mainline” aircraft. Regional jets exist because technological advancements made 50 seat jets more economical. Regional airlines fly regional jets exists because “mainline” union demands (and I’m not just referring to pilot unions) have pushed wages and working conditions beyond what the market will bear. The only incentive to outsource work is because it can be done cheaper. So if you want the flying to stay at mainline, then make it economical to do so.
 
I think you may have some misunderstandings about the "regional" jet Skydog. Yes, technological advancements allowed 50-100 passengers to be carried on a smaller platform. But smaller aircraft are never economical. The cost per seat mile soars.

No, the rise of the "regional" jet began with airline management's understanding that pilots like flying airplanes -- SJS.

They realized that the commuter pilots who had been largely ignored by ALPA would be delighted to fly "shiny jets" (for lack of a better term). Scope clauses at the majors were not designed for replacement platforms so the flying was outsourced. (Granted the pilots at the majors were shortsighted and slow to respond)

All of the sudden this DC9, Bac1-11, F28, F100 flying was being flown at a fraction of the cost. Simply by placing the word "regional" in front of an aircraft type managers and manufacturers were able to fool people into thinking that this airplane was something OTHER than a highly capable platform. It's not.

You could call the 777 a 777RJ and it doesn't change what it is.

So should the major airline pilots continue to degrade pay and working conditions to try and win back the flying? Should they have slashed their 737, DC9, etc pay in order to keep the flying? No, of course not. It's management's responsibility to make money with the contract that THEY had a part in negotiating!! The ONLY mistake that was made was in writing scope-clauses in the 80s and 90s.

EVERY aircraft flown in the service of XYZ airlines should be flown by XYZ airline pilots. For what rate? That's for the negotiators to decide. In the meantime you and your mainline "brothers" will continue to squabble about whose flying is whose... while management laughs all the way to the bank.
 
I think you may have some misunderstandings about the "regional" jet Skydog. Yes, technological advancements allowed 50-100 passengers to be carried on a smaller platform. But smaller aircraft are never economical. The cost per seat mile soars.

No, the rise of the "regional" jet began with airline management's understanding that pilots like flying airplanes -- SJS.

They realized that the commuter pilots who had been largely ignored by ALPA would be delighted to fly "shiny jets" (for lack of a better term). Scope clauses at the majors were not designed for replacement platforms so the flying was outsourced. (Granted the pilots at the majors were shortsighted and slow to respond)

All of the sudden this DC9, Bac1-11, F28, F100 flying was being flown at a fraction of the cost. Simply by placing the word "regional" in front of an aircraft type managers and manufacturers were able to fool people into thinking that this airplane was something OTHER than a highly capable platform. It's not.

You could call the 777 a 777RJ and it doesn't change what it is.

So should the major airline pilots continue to degrade pay and working conditions to try and win back the flying? Should they have slashed their 737, DC9, etc pay in order to keep the flying? No, of course not. It's management's responsibility to make money with the contract that THEY had a part in negotiating!! The ONLY mistake that was made was in writing scope-clauses in the 80s and 90s.

EVERY aircraft flown in the service of XYZ airlines should be flown by XYZ airline pilots. For what rate? That's for the negotiators to decide. In the meantime you and your mainline "brothers" will continue to squabble about whose flying is whose... while management laughs all the way to the bank.

I'm not a finance man, I don't know about the economics of a small airplane. I do know that management didn't just make this stuff up to screw with employee unions. If they got smaller jets, there was a financial incentive for it. It's pretty arrogant to think that airlines changed their business model just to F with employees.

It's interesting to me that you place blame for the financial condition of an airline solely on management's shoulders; as if any airline union can't wreak economic destruction on the company if it wanted to do so. Airline management is hardly free to do as it wishes. Labor law and the unions have seen to that.

As far as what pilots should do: they should do the job they are paid to do, or go find another job. It's not your or my place as an employee to tell the boss how to run his business. If you don't want to work for what the boss wants to pay, then leave and make room for someone who will. Go find another job that will pay you what you think your worth if your current job doesn't.

And who's to say who "should" do what work? Certainly not you or I. That decision rests with the the guy who's paying the bills.
 
I think you underestimate the economic incentive to outsourcing the organization's second largest cost (fuel being the first). Management absolutely had an incentive to outsource that flying. Cheaper pilots, cheaper flight attendants, cheaper mechanics, cheaper dispatchers -- they slashed labor costs.

I agree that a union can wreak havok upon their employer. I also understand, however, that it takes two to sign a contract. Hopefully management is responsible enough to avoid signing an agreement that would make profitability an impossibility.
 
Today we have lower pilot wages, but we also have tens of thousands more pilot jobs. Take your pick.

That's an easy choice. Higher wages and less jobs please. If that were to mean I'm suddenly unemployed/furloughed so be it. If the regionals disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear. The majors can go back to flying DC-9s and 737s into smaller airports.
 
If that's the case, I think that's the best possible argument for getting involved and working towards unity.

It was one thing when people were just here to 'get some time and experience' and leave. Seeing as how people now fully expect to spend their careers here, maybe we should take a second look at how we conduct ourselves day to day in general.

Agreed, Bird. Our industry is still evolving from the effects of the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. The sad fact is that the Legacies are shrinking away from domestic flying, the LCCs are growing and the Legacies are increasing the size of their feeders to compensate. This translates into fewer jobs at the majors with more pilots at the regionals competing for those fewer jobs. In the end, more pilots will be retiring at the regionals. This won't be so bad if the pay, benefits and quality of life rises up to par with the current state of the Legacy contracts.

Very few regional pilots will be retiring as millionaires, but not many Legacy pilots are going to be doing so either.

Regardless of what any individual pilot's dreams and goals are for their career, they'd be smart to work to support their union and a better contract. It's a win-win. If they leave, then they have the experience and satisfaction of knowing they've helped their fellow pilots coming in behind them. If they stay, they have the satisfaction of knowing they've done their best to provide better pay, better benefits and better working conditions for themselves.
 
That's an easy choice. Higher wages and less jobs please. If that were to mean I'm suddenly unemployed/furloughed so be it. If the regionals disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear. The majors can go back to flying DC-9s and 737s into smaller airports.

Where are you working now?
 
Very few regional pilots will be retiring as millionaires, but not many Legacy pilots are going to be doing so either.

Why do you say that? Even with a minimal rate of return, with nothing more than COLA pay increases, I would still retire with several million dollars in my B-Fund. Even a regional pilot can expect to retire with over a million, unless he was a mid-life career changer.
 
Why do you say that? Even with a minimal rate of return, with nothing more than COLA pay increases, I would still retire with several million dollars in my B-Fund. Even a regional pilot can expect to retire with over a million, unless he was a mid-life career changer.

Show me some numbers about what a newhire at DAL or UAL can expect to see over their 30 year career and I'll believe you. I use 30 years because most Legacy newhires will be in their 30s, but I could be wrong. What do you think?
 
Assuming the pilot came to DAL or UAL with absolutely no rollover 401k money (highly unlikely), and had a 10-year upgrade, and all future contracts provided nothing more than COLA (highly unlikely, IMO), and assuming the pilot contributed absolutely nothing of his own money and only took the company contribution (also highly unlikely), then the following would be the end result at retirement:

DAL: $2 million
UAL: $1.9 million
 
Assuming the pilot came to DAL or UAL with absolutely no rollover 401k money (highly unlikely), and had a 10-year upgrade, and all future contracts provided nothing more than COLA (highly unlikely, IMO), and assuming the pilot contributed absolutely nothing of his own money and only took the company contribution (also highly unlikely), then the following would be the end result at retirement:

DAL: $2 million
UAL: $1.9 million

$%)($*%)(*$)%(*$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF am I doing with my life...
 
Nice figures, but I don't see the references. Not arguing with you, I simply don't see how you are arriving at such a lucrative projection.

Also, looking at my peers, most are struggling pay off debt and raise families so very few have enough income in their 20s to contribute except for the single pilots or those with wealthy spouses.
 
No, the rise of the "regional" jet began with airline management's understanding that pilots like flying airplanes -- SJS.

They realized that the commuter pilots who had been largely ignored by ALPA would be delighted to fly "shiny jets" (for lack of a better term.)

I think I disagree with that statement, but agree with what I see as the proper reason you put forth below:

Scope clauses at the majors were not designed for replacement platforms so the flying was outsourced. (Granted the pilots at the majors were shortsighted and slow to respond)

Myopic at best, but again, it reaches back to the beginnings of commuter feed, and allowing markets abandoned by the carrier as their prop fleets were relegated to the past, then allowing other carriers flying the "new tech props" (Metros, Shorts, F27s) fly into the markets they left. That trend merely continued with the jet phenomenon.

Oddly enough, the trend can be seen in the commuter world today. At our former shop, as we got the ERJs and parked the props in their favor. We also left certain markets to be replaced by other commuters flying the like-sized (and indeed in certain instances - the same) equipment.

All of the sudden this DC9, Bac1-11, F28, F100 flying was being flown at a fraction of the cost. Simply by placing the word "regional" in front of an aircraft type managers and manufacturers were able to fool people into thinking that this airplane was something OTHER than a highly capable platform. It's not.

You could call the 777 a 777RJ and it doesn't change what it is.

100%, I hope that the pilot group as a collective sees this.

EVERY aircraft flown in the service of XYZ airlines should be flown by XYZ airline pilots. For what rate? That's for the negotiators to decide. In the meantime you and your mainline "brothers" will continue to squabble about whose flying is whose... while management laughs all the way to the bank.

That's a great thought. I came across another way to look at it. Traditionally, scope was an exclusive clause, in effect causing the carriers to look at alternatives for providing lift in segments they needed via other means.

As the industry has shown, the idea has not been as successful for the pilot groups as we would have liked. I submit the idea of transitioning scope to an inclusive clause would be far more effective.

Give the managers the latitude to create subsidiaries, rotate the fleet to meet demands (seriously, is not completely obvious that there will be a flood of new turboprops to replace the 19-30 seaters getting long in the tooth? Also, as the aforementioned DC9/BaC1-11/F28/F70 fleets got turned into beer cans due to age, and a sudden "market gap" for 50-100 seat airplanes was "discovered"....), and exercise other business practices to make the carrier successful. In return, we should expect that all of these business developments to make the carrier successful will have a hand in the important things of unions: Allow job stability, so as the need perhaps for smaller gauge equipment is presented, they are able to rotate the new shells into the business, be they 19 seats or 500 allowing presently employed pilots to remain employed. Provide career advancement, as the airline is able to expand into equipment they see, that will provide growth, thus upgrades and movement on the list.

/:soapbox:
 
50+ seat flying at the commuters never would have happened had the majors not given up scope for $$. UAL is a perfect example.
 
Nice figures, but I don't see the references. Not arguing with you, I simply don't see how you are arriving at such a lucrative projection.

You can use a 401k calculator at many of the different financial sites on the web. The numbers to use from the individual pilot contracts are:

DAL - 10% B-Fund contribution, and 2% non-elective 401k contribution
UAL - 9% B-Fund contribution, and 7% non-elective C-Fund contribution

In other words, Delta contributes 12% of a pilot's income to his retirement without the pilot contributing a dime, and UAL contributes 16%. The reason the numbers come out the same in the end despite the big difference in contributions is UAL's much lower pay rates.

Also, looking at my peers, most are struggling pay off debt and raise families so very few have enough income in their 20s to contribute except for the single pilots or those with wealthy spouses.

I had $17,000 in my 401k when left Pinnacle at the age of 24. I'm single, but I'm also a pretty big spender.
 
You can use a 401k calculator at many of the different financial sites on the web. The numbers to use from the individual pilot contracts are:

DAL - 10% B-Fund contribution, and 2% non-elective 401k contribution
UAL - 9% B-Fund contribution, and 7% non-elective C-Fund contribution

In other words, Delta contributes 12% of a pilot's income to his retirement without the pilot contributing a dime, and UAL contributes 16%. The reason the numbers come out the same in the end despite the big difference in contributions is UAL's much lower pay rates.



I had $17,000 in my 401k when left Pinnacle at the age of 24. I'm single, but I'm also a pretty big spender.

Serious question for all, but I will single you out as you seem to be pretty open about things.

How safe to you think it is to be looking at the pension provided by Delta, AirTran or particularly UAL? You have seen pensions stripped in bankruptcy at other carriers, so how much are you counting/planning on it? Do you create your personal financial plan BASED upon the pension, or do you plan as if it may or may not be there and if it is then its gravy?
 
I have to fly on Eagle tomorrow so I sincerely hope that the flight crew both have 5000+ TT, and were furloughed TWA (or other reputable 121) or former freight dogs.

(sigh) And that's the easy part. The 4 hours in a center seat on an MD80 to the west coast will follow.
 
Back
Top