American Eagle: A Career Airline

[kellwolf]

At 35, I am aware I could still have a 30 year airline career, but I am a bit older than the average starting regional pilot I am sure, and don't even have a job yet! I could see myself being perfectly happy staying at a stable regional for my entire career. Eagle, being owned by the major it services, seems to be one of the best bets.

This is where I have issues: stable regional. To me, there really is no such thing. XJT was once owned by the major it serviced. Heck, PINNACLE was once owned by the major IT serviced. If American sees an opportunity to turn Eagle into cash that benefits their bottom line, they will sell it just like Continental and Northwest sold XJT and Pinnacle. I just can't be comfortable wondering if I'm gonna be out of a job after being somewhere for 10-15 years if the mainline partner decides to outsource, give up scope or straight up sell out. Eagle may be stable, but a change in some scope clauses kicks the door wide open for Trans States or other American Connection carriers to start doing the flying for cheaper.

 

[Bwatz]

It is probably the under 30 and single crowd that think a career at a regional is pathetic. Once you have kids and a mortgage other priorities take precedence over flying a Boeing or Airbus.

I wouldn't say it is pathetic, but the thought of working at ASA for 34 more years sure sucks. I think the priority is more money and time off rather than Boeing or Airbus.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Making a six-figure income while getting apprx 15 days off per month doesn't sound too pathetic to me. I think most of the population would agree with that.

Something to consider when you're looking at days off. There are two ways to look at this:

1. Time off means time at home.
2. Time off means time not on-duty.

A 15 day off line at my company equals about 285 hours time away from base, and about 135 hours of duty. If you were to work the same month, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with a one-hour commute on both ends, you'll work 220 hours.

So, if you consider time away from home as work, then you're actually working more than someone with a "typical" schedule. If you consider time on-duty as work, then you're coming out ahead.

Personally, when I'm away from home, I consider that "work." Yes, even if I'm enjoying dinner and a drink with my crew in downtown Toronto, I consider myself "working." So when I look at my schedule, and see 367 hours time away from base, with a line credit of 95 hours and 150 hours of duty, I question my productivity.

If you have a schedule with 367 hours TAFB in a 31-day month, you are away from home 49% of the month. If you work 220 hours in the same month, you are away from home 29% of the month.

That, coupled with the things mentioned by NJACapt, are things you must consider when you look at how "cush" this job really is.

 

[USMCmech]

Why is a career flying an RJ sad? The -145 is basically an overgrown Legacy

.....

It's interesting to me that there's a stigma involved with flying a certain size or type of airplane. Assuming you're not working too hard or making too little, if you're happy with that, what's the problem?

I should clarify,

Nothing wrong with an RJ, I've said several times that If the biggest thing I ever fly is a King Air, I'll be perfectly happy. I know many FedEx feeder pilots who make more flying a 208 than some RJ captains, and have better QOL.

Aspiring to fly for crappy wages and horrible QOL that are typical at the low end regionals is sad.

 

[Gonzo]

Something to consider when you're looking at days off. There are two ways to look at this:

1. Time off means time at home.
2. Time off means time not on-duty.

A 15 day off line at my company equals about 285 hours time away from base, and about 135 hours of duty. If you were to work the same month, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, with a one-hour commute on both ends, you'll work 220 hours.

So, if you consider time away from home as work, then you're actually working more than someone with a "typical" schedule. If you consider time on-duty as work, then you're coming out ahead.

Personally, when I'm away from home, I consider that "work." Yes, even if I'm enjoying dinner and a drink with my crew in downtown Toronto, I consider myself "working." So when I look at my schedule, and see 367 hours time away from base, with a line credit of 95 hours and 150 hours of duty, I question my productivity.

If you have a schedule with 367 hours TAFB in a 31-day month, you are away from home 49% of the month. If you work 220 hours in the same month, you are away from home 29% of the month.

That, coupled with the things mentioned by NJACapt, are things you must consider when you look at how "cush" this job really is.

I don't know where you are bidding in base. But just a quick look at the LGA and ORD CRJ bids show 42 of the 75 lines have under 220 TAFB and 10 lines have under a 110 TAFB for LGA and ORD CRJ has 50 of 63 lines with less then 220 hours TAFB and a few under 100 hours TAFB.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I don't know where you are bidding in base. But just a quick look at the LGA and ORD CRJ bids show 42 of the 75 lines have under 220 TAFB and 10 lines have under a 110 TAFB for LGA and ORD CRJ has 50 of 63 lines with less then 220 hours TAFB and a few under 100 hours TAFB.

I pulled the 285 TAFB number from a line on the first page of the bid package. I pulled the 367 TAFB number from lines around my seniority in EWR. Both were four-day lines. Day trip and two-day lines have numbers similar to what you posted.

This doesn't take into account commuting time for those who choose to do so. Not trying to say this is how American Eagle works, but rather just trying to look at "15 days off and six-figures" from a different perspective. Many people getting into the industry think 15 days off is the norm, while at the regional level it seems to be an anomaly.

When I was at my last airline, I would typically get 15 days off as a low-seniority FO. That's because I bid 5-day trips. If I were to get 15 days off here, it's most likely because I traded away a trip and brought my line value down to the 70-75 hour range.

Not to steer the course off direction, but my biggest fear about changes to our rest and duty rules is that it will have a negative impact on our quality of life. We'll be able to get more rest at work (good), but we'll be required to work more days per month to achieve the same credit times (bad). Time will tell.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

89K annual base salary for a top Eagle Captain; 90K for a top Pinnacle guy. Forget the airframe; that's hardly chump change. There's worse ways to make a liviing.

I think I'm going to puke. If we don't get a new contract this year (God forbid), then I'll make roughly $85k gross. I'm certainly not struggling to pay the bills, but I'm also not living anything approaching an upper-middle-class lifestyle. These kinds of wages for a group of professionals are absolutely abysmal, and no one should be defending them.

 

[subpilot]

Ok, so I leave Eagle after say 12 years of seniority. I am now 42yo and I go to a major. I am junior reserve with a very slow moving seniority number. Two years later they furlough... now I am on the street making nothing. Just look at the furlough numbers and length of time for United and American pilots. Sure there is more earning potential by making the jump but there is also a risk involved. I will gladly cash in some potential income for job security and having the ability to hold good lines. As for the comment that a regional is not secure, I would say they are no more or less secure than ANY other airline out there (cough, cough... Frontier, Midwest, TWA, Aloha).

 

[cmill]

I'm split on this. I'll be the first to admit I have no dog in the 121 race, and probably never will, because of my own choices, but im gonna comment anyway.

I have no problem someone choosing a career path and being happy with it, even if its a career at a regional. True, 90k a year isnt chump change, but i dont think its the kind of standards we should be striving for as a pilot community to fly any kind of jet with 50 people in the back. When pilots are willing to happily accept that kind of pay then thats just more incentive for management to dole it out, which lowers the bar for everyone.

Now like i said, i dont have a dog in the 121 race, but what regionals pay affect every professional pilot. I would love to fly for an airline, but im not going to put up with that kind of BS for that kind of pay. Sure im only flying piston poppers, but if I have the opportunity to make 50k a year flying pistons, while working 9-5 and getting weekends off, then im going to take it.

I am a pilot at my core, and i would love to someday fly the "big metal," but not at that cost. Either way i fully support everyone who is doing everything they can to make the airline world better for everyone.

 

[MikeD]

Ok, so I leave Eagle after say 12 years of seniority. I am now 42yo and I go to a major. I am junior reserve with a very slow moving seniority number. Two years later they furlough... now I am on the street making nothing. Just look at the furlough numbers and length of time for United and American pilots. Sure there is more earning potential by making the jump but there is also a risk involved. I will gladly cash in some potential income for job security and having the ability to hold good lines. As for the comment that a regional is not secure, I would say they are no more or less secure than ANY other airline out there (cough, cough... Frontier, Midwest, TWA, Aloha).

Curiously, since I believe a number of pilots may share the opinion you state here, when would be considered the "point of no return" in the regional career where it becomes now "press ahead", and voluntarily moving onto a different carrier or major, no longer becomes an option? Probably a tough question to answer and one that varies person to person, I understand, but when is/was it for you?

 

[Polar742]

Curiously, since I believe a number of pilots may share the opinion you state here, when would be considered the "point of no return" in the regional career where it becomes now "press ahead", and voluntarily moving onto a different carrier or major, no longer becomes an option? Probably a tough question to answer and one that varies person to person, I understand, but when is/was it for you?

I was right at the go/no-go point when I left.

We had our first child, I was financially secure, and senior with 9 years invested.

I either had to leave when I did, or not. My considerations were mainly my QoL for the kids. Whatever job I had when they were growing up would be their "normal". Going from a senior domestic schedule to anything else
would be quite a shock to them. That and checking out guys that were 15-20 years older than me who got furloughed from domestic mainline positions really opened my eyes to things.

Now they get to adjust to a 7 on/ 7 off or 2 weeks on/ 2 off schedule. It's all they know at this point.

 

[skydog2]

Curiously, since I believe a number of pilots may share the opinion you state here, when would be considered the "point of no return" in the regional career where it becomes now "press ahead", and voluntarily moving onto a different carrier or major, no longer becomes an option? Probably a tough question to answer and one that varies person to person, I understand, but when is/was it for you?

I just did a "what if" using Continental's numbers. I left AWAC in mid-2006. But had I gone to Continental instead (which I had the option to do), I would be about 85K in the hole right now. Assuming nothing changes (for better or worse) and assuming that I stayed as an SN FO the entire time, I would never make it up. I would end up my career having made about 20K less than I would have made had I stayed at AWAC. Now, realistically, I would not stay a SN FO the entire time, but since I have no way to extrapolate what might happen, and since CAL has furloughees right now, it seems a safe bet that a SN FO will stay there for a while.

I'm reminded of a thread from that other board, where an Air Tran guy was asking a WWYD question. He was 38 years old and had the option to go to United, and was wondering if he should. My response was that the numbers didn't ad up. He was in line to make Captain at AT within the next year or so. Going to United he'd have been an FO for at least 10 (15 now) years. Sure, he probably would have moved on to a bigger airframe as an FO, but still, the move didn't make sense to me, and I said so. The confounding variable was "he really wanted to fly something larger than a DC-9." As it turns out, if we went, he'd be furloughed now. I wonder what decision he made.

 

[Airdale]

Why is a career flying an RJ sad? The -145 is basically an overgrown Legacy.

What if you aspired to a career flying corporate jets?

Is there a difference?

It's interesting to me that there's a stigma involved with flying a certain size or type of airplane. Assuming you're not working too hard or making too little, if you're happy with that, what's the problem?

Because RJ's are outsourced flying. 15 years ago, the job you have now, would have been mainline. Larger equipment, better work rules and better pay. I don't have a problem with "RJ's" per say, I fly one too. I have a problem with the concept.

We work more hours, fly more hours, have less time off, have sub-par work rules and rely on the "mainline" carrier to throw us a bone. The work we do is not secure. Sure at Eagle you are tied to the hip of AMR. I don't work there so I can't comment on the work rules etc., but I'd bet my paycheck that it's a lot better at AA than at Eagle.

I agree we need to stop the "up and out" mentality by working for better work rules and pay at the Regionals, but I just wish the regionals didn't exsist. I get sick of all of the "RJ" traffic too at the airports. Park every 50 seat RJ and replace with a mainline bird and we've got half the delays, half the traffic issues and every pilot works for the name on their paycheck. Pipe dream.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Because RJ's are outsourced flying. 15 years ago, the job you have now, would have been mainline. Larger equipment, better work rules and better pay. I don't have a problem with "RJ's" per say, I fly one too. I have a problem with the concept.

We work more hours, fly more hours, have less time off, have sub-par work rules and rely on the "mainline" carrier to throw us a bone. The work we do is not secure. Sure at Eagle you are tied to the hip of AMR. I don't work there so I can't comment on the work rules etc., but I'd bet my paycheck that it's a lot better at AA than at Eagle.

I agree we need to stop the "up and out" mentality by working for better work rules and pay at the Regionals, but I just wish the regionals didn't exsist. I get sick of all of the "RJ" traffic too at the airports. Park every 50 seat RJ and replace with a mainline bird and we've got half the delays, half the traffic issues and every pilot works for the name on their paycheck. Pipe dream.

He didn't say that outsourced flying was sad. He said that flying an RJ was sad.

Wishing the regionals didn't exist won't change the fact that they do, and it would take an epic change in the aviation world to negate them.

Going back to all-mainline will never happen. There's a reason why airlines drove to outsourced flying. It doesn't matter what size the airplane is, it's not on the legacy pilot group contract- that's why it exists.

Suppression of the regional market won't change the fact that we're undervalued. We just have to earn for ourselves what our legacy partners did in the decades past.

We have our work cut out for us, but as we're up to 50% of the total industry in certain ways, I'd say there's reason enough to fix it rather than scrap it.

 

[subpilot]

Curiously, since I believe a number of pilots may share the opinion you state here, when would be considered the "point of no return" in the regional career where it becomes now "press ahead", and voluntarily moving onto a different carrier or major, no longer becomes an option? Probably a tough question to answer and one that varies person to person, I understand, but when is/was it for you?

I think that is a personal decision for each person. If I saw large growth/movement across the boards at all the majors and the economy was all rosy then perhaps I would make the move too but that will be a decision to make when I cross that bridge. I still have perhaps 5 more years until I am even logging TPIC and I figure close to 2 years to build the 1000 hours so by then I am pushing 40yo and my kids will be 15, 11, and 9yo. Not really a time in my life that I want to take any financial/career risk. I am all about working on making the regionals a better place to work and I forsee that the line between major/regional will become more blurry in the upcoming years. We'll see I guess.

 

[Airdale]

He didn't say that outsourced flying was sad. He said that flying an RJ was sad.

Or maybe he is saying that the principle idea of flying an RJ sucks.

I agree with everything else you said though. Its just ashame to think of a career at a Regional. When we were all growing up, I don't think anyone of us said "I wanna fly for Comair/Pinnacle/Piedmont/enter regional here -Airlines." I personally had aspirations to fly for Delta, Continental or American. That still may be a possibility if everyone at the regionals decides to stay. In 8-10 years half of AMR's pilot list is supposed to retire. This coming from an AA captain on our jumpseat last month who was trying to change my negative perspective on the industry.

 

[MikeD]

In 8-10 years half of AMR's pilot list is supposed to retire. This coming from an AA captain on our jumpseat last month who was trying to change my negative perspective on the industry.

Was it Kit Darby Jr?

 

[Airdale]

Was it Kit Darby Jr?

LOL! He may have been!! But he stated that the top 50% of their seniority list is over 55. So in ten years, their pilot group will have had a 50% turnover rate. Now whether the guy was blowing smoke, I have no idea. But there sure are a lot of old dudes running around at AMR. This guy himself was 59, planning to retire in 2 years. He was no where near the senior Captain there.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Or maybe he is saying that the principle idea of flying an RJ sucks.

I agree with everything else you said though. Its just ashame to think of a career at a Regional. When we were all growing up, I don't think anyone of us said "I wanna fly for Comair/Pinnacle/Piedmont/enter regional here -Airlines." I personally had aspirations to fly for Delta, Continental or American. That still may be a possibility if everyone at the regionals decides to stay. In 8-10 years half of AMR's pilot list is supposed to retire. This coming from an AA captain on our jumpseat last month who was trying to change my negative perspective on the industry.

I saw a sheet dated from about a year ago or so, with the age 65 change. About 7000 pilots are due to reach mandatory retirement age at AA in the next 10 years.

 

[Rocketman99]

I can't say I necessarily care about the kind of plane I'm flying but I certainly do care about what kind of flying I'm doing. For me as a career, being pigeonholed into nothing but crap domestic turns will not cut it. Even if you paid me $200K+ to do it I still wouldn't be happy. I need to be flying outside of the US, and preferably not as an ex-pat for some foreign airline.

Money matters too. Particularly since I live in NYC, nothing less than 6 figures is acceptable. So pretty much a career at a regional is out of the question as far as I'm concerned. There needs to be some damn hiring...