American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering with pi

Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

ASAPs are for mistakes and errors (unintentional) , not violations (intentional).

Isn't a go round normally due to a mistake or error? I mean, sure it's possible the guy REALLY wanted to overblock so he went around when there was no reason for it and then filed an ASAP to protect himself, but in most cases, a go around is due to somebody (either the guy in the plane or a guy on the ground) messing up somewhere).
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

Isn't a go round normally due to a mistake or error? I mean, sure it's possible the guy REALLY wanted to overblock so he went around when there was no reason for it and then filed an ASAP to protect himself, but in most cases, a go around is due to somebody (either the guy in the plane or a guy on the ground) messing up somewhere).

As a general rule, yes, a go-around evolves from any number of errors and it has taken airlines a LONG time to get in place no penalty for going-around regardless of the reason. And because of that, I tend to think there is more to the story than just a go-around. And as usual, there is his story, the company's story and.. the truth...:)

Hope we find out the truth.
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

It would seem that the pilots have done the same. They're more worried about protecting themselves then protecting the public. Clearly safety isn't highest on their priority list either.

Vested Interest. . .you actually have it in this case. That is, if you're part of the flying public.

Pilots are concerned with protecting themselves.

Duh?

They're the first one to the accident. Human nature dictates that we protect ourselves, and by protecting ourselves we protect those who are relying on us to provide a safe avenue for transportation.

At least that is the theory that I subscribe to. Now, for those who have left the profession, and really don't care about the day to day dealings of the profession. . .not really sure what type of theory they follow. Perhaps you could enlighten us all?
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

ASAP is established via a three-way Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the FAA, the Company, and the union. It takes all three parties willing to work together in order to have a successful program.

I won't go into details, but a well run ASAP program should bring in and keep all inadvertant errors (Uh, like if you put in 5000' in your ALT SEL when the Jepp plate for the sid shows 4000'. Ask me how I know these things:rolleyes:) as a learning experience instead of a punitive experience.

What are the benefits of ASAP? I will only touch on the few I can come up with off the top of my head:

1) Provide a safe envrionment to disclose and evaluate errors made. Who in their right mind would admit to, or discuss the circumstances of, an error they made if it resulted in punitive action? All issues brought into the ASAP program are maintained in the program. All corrective action remains in the bounds of the ASAP program and the results will not follow pilots on the PRIA program.

2) Trend analysis. Why is this important? The information derived allows evaluation of the standardization of the pilot group, analysis of company procedures, effectiveness of the training program (of course adding in the checking portion of the training program. While we all can have a bad day, a checkride really evaluates the effectiveness of the instructors and the training program), issues with ATC and other issues affecting safety of flight.

For example if there are 10 altitude deviations month after month, should one individual pilot be held accountable if it is a systemic error with the procedures or culture? With out the trend analysis of ASAP, all the CP sees are alot of altitude deviations sliding across his desk, pissing him off, and out come the memos. Using the trend analysis and reports, it was found that the procedures written caused the deviations due to an awkwardly worded procedure.

3) In extreme cases, which are few and far between, pilots can even be retrained in the program. Most of the issues I have been involved in would have been a suspension and back on the line instead of a retraining event furthering that pilot's professional development.

The above three points illustrate how ASAP can be effective developing the much talked about, but historically, weakly implemented safety culture in an airline.

It supplements the ASRS system, as all reports included ultimately end up as "NASA Reports" adding to that data group as well, benefitting all pilot groups.

As we all know, a safer a pilot group is, the safer the flying public is. The data is there to analyze.
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

Our training department takes lots of the de-identified ASAP reports and evaluates them, in turn our training can be fine tuned according to what's happening on the line. Sometimes it can be as little as a discussion in recurrent ground school or during the sim pre-brief, but often it involves training in the simulator. We even use the reports to look at our procedures and make changes in the POH and FOM.

It's great having it as a CYA deal and some pilots even see it that way, but there's much more that goes on behind the scenes that makes this such an outstanding program.
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

Our training department takes lots of the de-identified ASAP reports and evaluates them, in turn our training can be fine tuned according to what's happening on the line. Sometimes it can be as little as a discussion in recurrent ground school or during the sim pre-brief, but often it involves training in the simulator. We even use the reports to look at our procedures and make changes in the POH and FOM.

It's great having it as a CYA deal and some pilots even see it that way, but there's much more that goes on behind the scenes that makes this such an outstanding program.

Same here. And if there wasn't a CYA involved for the pilots, there's no WAY a lot of that stuff would get reported. If there's a potentially career ending issue that keeps cropping up b/c of a checklist, who is going to VOLUNTARILY say "Yeah, I messed up big" without assurances they won't be working at Home Depot in a week. Program isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing.

I know in my last CRM class we saw at LEAST three videos that were done off of FOQA/ASAP data that had us all going "WAH?? Why did they do that?" For the CAs it was a "This is how far a lot of FOs will let you go, so take your responsibility seriously" and for the FOs it was "This is how nuts some CAs are, so speak up."
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

There are definitely some reports that leave you with your head scratching.
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

There are definitely some reports that leave you with your head scratching.

The way it was explained to me is that ASAP is meant to show what is going on when flying the line. Meaning everyone tries to be standard, but there are instances where isht happens. ASAP allows us to look at what is happening way to much. Without getting into detail, the LGA incident at my beloved OH was one situation where it had all of us scratching our heads wondering how did this not end up on the news.
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

FAA Considers Crackdown on American Eagle for Flying Overloaded Planes

American Eagle is in danger of being kicked out of a key safety program by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) because the commuter airline repeatedly flew overloaded, potentially unsafe planes, aviation sources tell ABCNews.com.

As first reported on the Blotter, FAA investigators found at least 19 cases where American Eagle planes took off despite being overweight or improperly balanced.

ABCNews.com has learned that in a separate case an American Eagle plane was improperly loaded with a 300 lb. metal maintenance staircase and four 50 lb. sandbags that were put into a plane's cargo hold as ballast.

...

At a recent meeting, the FAA official in charge of ASAP, Tom Longridge, agreed with the recommendation of two FAA investigators that American Eagle's participation in the program be discontinued, according to sources within the aviation community. When contacted by ABCNews.com, Longridge refused to comment on American Eagle's status.

WTH FAA?!
 
Re: American Airlines safety program ends amid bickering wit

If you INTENTIONALLY take off with an overloaded plane, the ASAP shouldn't be allowed into the program anyway. You're intentionally violating a limitation. If you unknowingly takeoff with it overweight b/c ramp gave you a messed up cargo slip, things like that should be included. We (scarily sometimes) have to trust that the ground crew does their jobs. Unfortunately, they screw up, some pilot winds up paying the price and the rampers that messed up go on to load another plane.
 
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