American 767 RTO at ORD

[RDoug]

ATC assumed the Skywest plane had departed from the intersection already.

The story in ATC circles is that the controller assumed Skywest was holding short. She initially told the aircraft to taxi into position and hold, didn't see the aircraft go onto the runway and missed the readback, then cleared USAir to land thinking that Skywest hadn't heard the TIPH instruction and was safely holding at the intersection.

 

[MikeD]

The story in ATC circles is that the controller assumed Skywest was holding short. She initially told the aircraft to taxi into position and hold, didn't see the aircraft go onto the runway and missed the readback, then cleared USAir to land thinking that Skywest hadn't heard the TIPH instruction and was safely holding at the intersection.

I wonder where they thought the skywest ended up then, if it wasnt still holding short where they thought it held at at the intersection. Of course with what had just occurred with 1493 and the (reasonable) assumption that it was merely a one-plane landing accident by 1493, i can see where the skywest plane would have dropped out of thought in the immediate aftermath. Would there be anything in the tower such as any kind of flight strip remaining and not accounted for (why is this skywest strip still here?) like a RAPCON has, or any other accounting method that would have revealed that skywest taxiied out but never actually departed? Or RAPCON expecting them but they never appeared on departure?

 

[derg]

1493 sounds like a nightmare.

Yup, I still remember when that happened...

in college.

One of my big fears is being someplace like ATL where you hear the minimal separation "beep" in the background as you're being cleared for takeoff in lower vis. I always fear aborting and then getting hit in the ass because someone wasn't paying attention and saw that we were still on the runway because our "SouthernJets 123 is aborting takeoff" got stepped on.

I have weird nightmares, but it's recurring.

 

[learhawkerbe400]

It was in 1991. He was relatively new at the time and is in his mid 50s now. He looks a lot younger than most of them lol.

Neat that you got to hear it first hand, I wonder if he is the one interviewed in the Air Crash Investigation episode. Latino guy?

It just blows my mind people would be fighting during an evac, especially if wiki is correct and it was AT the exit.

No he’s a white guy. There was another male FA so that must of been him. He went into the training department and i don’t think he flies the line anymore.

The craziest thing about it was I got a call from my mom a couple days after I talked to the FA and she told me my aunt and him were good friends. Small world.

 

[RDoug]

As I said, Mike, the story I heard was that she thought Skywest hadn't heard the TIPH instruction, and assumed Skywest was holding short so she didn't bother to say the words, "Hold short." That intersection was hidden behind the glare of bright lights between the runway and the tower, so she didn't see the aircraft holding on the runway. From USair's perspective, they were facing directly into the sun and also didn't see Skywest down the runway at an intersection. I don't know about the flight progress strip situation at the time in LAX tower.

Just looked up the Wiki article, as you got me wondering if I remembered it correctly:

• The local controller who cleared both aircraft to use the same runway, Robin Lee Wascher, testified before the NTSB and accepted blame for causing the crash. She said she originally thought the landing USAir plane had been hit by a bomb, then "realized something went wrong... I went to the supervisor and I said, 'I think this (the SkyWest plane) is what USAir hit.'" She testified that rooftop lights in her line of sight caused glare in the tower, making it difficult to see small planes at the intersection where the SkyWest plane was positioned. Just before the accident, she confused the Skywest plane with another commuter airliner that was on a taxiway near the end of the runway. Making matters more difficult, the ground radar at LAX was not working on the day of the accident.

And apparently I didn't hear the correct story, or it was told to me incorrectly, as in her testimony the controller said she confused Skywest with a Wings West Metroliner that was also on frequency. From the L.A. Times article of the NTSB hearing in 1991:

• Speaking calmly in succinct, measured phrases, she described her confusion before the accident. She said she directed the SkyWest metroliner onto the runway at a midpoint intersection, but she thought she was talking to the pilot of a Wings West metroliner that was on a taxiway near the end of the runway.
  
  This error positioned the SkyWest plane directly in the path of the landing jetliner. But Wascher said rooftop lights in her line of sight created glare on the control tower windows and made it difficult to see small planes at the intersection where the SkyWest plane was positioned.

 

[MikeD]

As I said, Mike, the story I heard was that she thought Skywest hadn't heard the TIPH instruction, and assumed Skywest was holding short so she didn't bother to say the words, "Hold short." That intersection was hidden behind the glare of bright lights between the runway and the tower, so she didn't see the aircraft holding on the runway. From USair's perspective, they were facing directly into the sun and also didn't see Skywest down the runway at an intersection. I don't know about the flight progress strip situation at the time in LAX tower.

Just looked up the Wiki article, as you got me wondering if I remembered it correctly:

• The local controller who cleared both aircraft to use the same runway, Robin Lee Wascher, testified before the NTSB and accepted blame for causing the crash. She said she originally thought the landing USAir plane had been hit by a bomb, then "realized something went wrong... I went to the supervisor and I said, 'I think this (the SkyWest plane) is what USAir hit.'" She testified that rooftop lights in her line of sight caused glare in the tower, making it difficult to see small planes at the intersection where the SkyWest plane was positioned. Just before the accident, she confused the Skywest plane with another commuter airliner that was on a taxiway near the end of the runway. Making matters more difficult, the ground radar at LAX was not working on the day of the accident.

And apparently I didn't hear the correct story, or it was told to me incorrectly, as in her testimony the controller said she confused Skywest with a Wings West Metroliner that was also on frequency. From the L.A. Times article of the NTSB hearing in 1991:

• Speaking calmly in succinct, measured phrases, she described her confusion before the accident. She said she directed the SkyWest metroliner onto the runway at a midpoint intersection, but she thought she was talking to the pilot of a Wings West metroliner that was on a taxiway near the end of the runway.
  
  This error positioned the SkyWest plane directly in the path of the landing jetliner. But Wascher said rooftop lights in her line of sight created glare on the control tower windows and made it difficult to see small planes at the intersection where the SkyWest plane was positioned.

Tragic still whichever way it occurred, especially being an honest error that had some difficulties in overcoming such as the glare from external lighting.

I wonder if this accident and some of the above mentioned factors, had any tie-in to the new and taller ATC tower built there about 5 or so years later. Cool thing is the old tower still exists, with its iconic look.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Sounds like a case of mixed up callsigns. She might have said SkyWest but in her head said Wings West. I've done that before. Especially if their flight numbers were similar. Heck the othe day I had UAL436, UAL446, UAL476, and AAL1986 on freq at the same time. That's just asking for a mixup or misheard directions.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I feel like there needs to be a system that locks the overhead bins in an evacuation. Tie it into the evacuation immediate action items, because people are dumb.

 

[chrisreedrules]

I feel like there needs to be a system that locks the overhead bins in an evacuation. Tie it into the evacuation immediate action items, because people are dumb.

Sure then someone will put their baby up there or something... I’ve only been flying 121 for a little over 3 years now and nothing shocks me anymore. People are just a little bit weird/silly/stupid when it comes to air travel these days.

“Ma’am you can’t put your baby up there”
—“But he’s sleeping”
“Ma’am you CAN NOT put your baby up there”
—“Well it’s just for this short flight”
“Ma’am if I have to tell you again we will begin a different discussion”
—“Fine I’ll hold my infant baby if I have to”

FA walks away, passenger puts baby in overhead storage anyway.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Yup, I still remember when that happened...

in college.

One of my big fears is being someplace like ATL where you hear the minimal separation "beep" in the background as you're being cleared for takeoff in lower vis. I always fear aborting and then getting hit in the ass because someone wasn't paying noticing that we were still on the runway because our "SouthernJets 123 is aborting takeoff" got stepped on.

I have weird nightmares, but it's recurring.

My issue with the “you’re always cleared to land in Atlanta” nonsense.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Sure then someone will put their baby up there or something... I’ve only been flying 121 for a little over 3 years now and nothing shocks me anymore. People are just a little bit weird/silly/stupid when it comes to air travel these days.

“Ma’am you can’t put your baby up there”
—“But he’s sleeping”
“Ma’am you CAN NOT put your baby up there”
—“Well it’s just for this short flight”
“Ma’am if I have to tell you again we will begin a different discussion”
—“Fine I’ll hold my infant baby if I have to”

FA walks away, passenger puts baby in overhead storage anyway.

This is a joke. This has to be a joke.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Sure then someone will put their baby up there or something... I’ve only been flying 121 for a little over 3 years now and nothing shocks me anymore. People are just a little bit weird/silly/stupid when it comes to air travel these days.

“Ma’am you can’t put your baby up there”
—“But he’s sleeping”
“Ma’am you CAN NOT put your baby up there”
—“Well it’s just for this short flight”
“Ma’am if I have to tell you again we will begin a different discussion”
—“Fine I’ll hold my infant baby if I have to”

FA walks away, passenger puts baby in overhead storage anyway.

This is a joke. This has to be a joke.

I think he’s not saying it actually happened, but it wouldn’t at all surprise me if it did or does at some point.