Amazing Story, Still Baffling

[derg]

Airlines LOVE anything military at the major level. They're more or less pre-screened. Love it or hate it, if you're a zillionaire or a pauper, you've pretty much only got your skillz to get you thru UPT.

 

[Hacker15e]

Airlines LOVE anything military at the major level. They're more or less pre-screened. Love it or hate it, if you're a zillionaire or a pauper, you've pretty much only got your skillz to get you thru UPT.

With the notable exception of helo guys. It's really unfortunate that the rotary wing guys are so ignored by the airlines.

Why do you think rotary wing time is so worthless to the majors?

 

[Hacker15e]

With respect to the thread topic, I can only shake my head at the GoJet pilot.

First off, I can't fathom what kind of an ego it takes to stop your phone conversation for the specific purpose of going over to razz a fellow pilot about what he flies.

Second, the entire idea that an RJ pilot thinks a turboprop pilot is flying 2nd rate equipment is laughable. There was probably a 76 or other widebody pilot standing within earshot who could have just as easily put the GoJet pilot's SJS in his place, but even if there were, that 76 driver I'm sure had more respect for himself than to make such an egotistical and retarded comment.

Third, WTF does a GoJet pilot come off spouting an opinion to anyone about where they work and what they fly??

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

With respect to the thread topic, I can only shake my head at the GoJet pilot.

First off, I can't fathom what kind of an ego it takes to stop your phone conversation for the specific purpose of going over to razz a fellow pilot about what he flies.

Second, the entire idea that an RJ pilot thinks a turboprop pilot is flying 2nd rate equipment is laughable. There was probably a 76 or other widebody pilot standing within earshot who could have just as easily put the GoJet pilot's SJS in his place, but even if there were, that 76 driver I'm sure had more respect for himself than to make such an egotistical and retarded comment.

Third, WTF does a GoJet pilot come off spouting an opinion to anyone about where they work and what they fly??

Hacker, you really need to move up the pipeline, your F-15 is antiquated at best.

My FA-18 Super Hornet model on the desk in my room, is 21 first century technology. Don't you want to fly the F-22, and fly the best metal in the world?

Don't settle for 20 yr. old technology.

Shakes my head and walks away!

 

[tonyw]

If you hear a loud roar over your house, Max, and then a big boom...well, I guess we know who did it.

 

[Tram]

With the notable exception of helo guys. It's really unfortunate that the rotary wing guys are so ignored by the airlines.

Why do you think rotary wing time is so worthless to the majors?

I've always been told it's better to have VD in your health record than heli time in your log book at the majors..

It's a bummer, as flying a heli is obviously a heck of a lot harder than flying fixed wing..

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I was under the impression that single pilot military flying was not held in as high a regard any more by the airlines due to the fact that 2-crew CRM skills obviously aren't needed in a single seat fighter jet. Yes, I know you coordinate over the radio with AWACS and all that jazz, but its not like working with and trusting another guy in the right seat. Is this somewhat true, or did someone feed me a bowl of BS?

 

[Tram]

Sounds like someone ate a bowl of poo...

 

[Hacker15e]

I was under the impression that single pilot military flying was not held in as high a regard any more by the airlines due to the fact that 2-crew CRM skills obviously aren't needed in a single seat fighter jet. Yes, I know you coordinate over the radio with AWACS and all that jazz, but its not like working with and trusting another guy in the right seat. Is this somewhat true, or did someone feed me a bowl of BS?

Big bowl, I'm afraid.

For one, guys who get to fighters are generally the guys who did the best in their respective pilot training classes. That's a desirable trait in and of itself -- someone who has risen to the top of what is all ready a very select group of pilots. There are some majors that (in the past) actively sought out to hire single seat fighter guys. Not sure what the current atmosphere is, though.

Second, there is all kinds of CRM happening in a fighter flight. We don't go anywhere alone -- always in formations of 2s, 3s, or 4s. A flight lead always has at least a wingman in every endeavor. That requires a lot of coordination in pre-briefing and in flight. The guy may not be in the cockpit with you, but you still have to coordinate with your flight lead/wingman to successfully accomplish the flight. In fact, because you have to have such close coordination with a guy in another airplane means that you actually have pretty good situational awareness and coordination. And I have to trust that other guy in the other airplane with my life, and he trusts me with his.

Admittedly, a fighter guy's habit patterns don't match what happens in a normal crew airplane. But, let's face it -- that's not that tough to learn, especially when your job is to pull up the gear handle and talk on the radio.

As an aside...I fly with another guy in my jet (it's a 2-seat fighter). Just because we don't sit side-by-side does not mean we don't have to coordinate in the same way that an airliner crew does. Actually, since we cannot see each other, we have to be MORE precise with our pre-determined "contracts" with each other and use precise language over the intercomm so that we understand exactly what the other guy is doing.

 

[H46Bubba]

Definitely not. Fighter guys have never had difficulty getting on to majors due to being in a "small aircraft" or having "centerline thrust". If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested to hear it...but fighter dudes have never had any more challenge getting hired than anyone from any other background.

Alternatively, the fighter guy is logging PIC multiengine turbine from the first day he gets to his squadron. In addition, the airlines recognize that his 1500 hours was logged while hand-flying 1.2 at a time, not 8.0 at a pop with the autopilot on.

I wasn't trying to say anything about fighter guys difficulty getting on vs. a cargo guy. I thought that when fighter guys swap their stuff over to the FAA multi commercial there was something about centerline thrust restriction, but I might be confusing it with something else. What I was basically trying to convey, is that the cargo guys that fly eqipment that is similar to or a military version of equipment flown by major airlines, have a slight advantage when it comes to HR looking at resumes.

 

[Tram]

I thought that when fighter guys swap their stuff over to the FAA multi commercial there was something about centerline thrust restriction, but I might be confusing it with something else.

Yeh, they are centerline restricted..

To have that removed, they go up and do a couple VMC demos, shut down, restart the left engine a time or three and voila..

Done..

 

[OldTownPilot]

What about F-16 time? Is that just as bad as Caravan time? Its just single engine.







Just a bit of

 

[Hacker15e]

I thought that when fighter guys swap their stuff over to the FAA multi commercial there was something about centerline thrust restriction, but I might be confusing it with something else.

You're correct -- the military competency for the FAA Commercial ticket does get a multiengine rating with a centerline thrust restriction. Since everyone going to a major either all ready has an ATP or will get an ATP as part of their training process at the airline, it is a non-issue.

The time logged just goes in the "multi" column of the logbook...there is no such thing as a "centerline multi" section!

What I was basically trying to convey, is that the cargo guys that fly eqipment that is similar to or a military version of equipment flown by major airlines, have a slight advantage when it comes to HR looking at resumes.

I understood that...and I still don't agree that there is any preference toward a heavy pilot or away from a fighter pilot in the majors hiring process. There has never been any specific evidence of that that I have either seen or heard of.

 

[H46Bubba]

Yeh, they are centerline restricted..

To have that removed, they go up and do a couple VMC demos, shut down, restart the left engine a time or three and voila..

Done..

Thanks Tram!

 

[Velocipede]

He ended up in the E-6b...Not saying there is anything wrong with the E-6b what so ever, but for a guy who would have taken anything that would have allowed him to fly off a boat, it made me chuckle to think, he prolly didn't do too hot during flight school to end up in one of the few land bases naval aircraft.

Actually, you might be surprised how many people join the Navy with the express intention of flying Patrol. Of course, the ringknockers are usually all jazzed about TacAir and they do a pretty good job in AOCS of pumping you up for the same pipeline.

However, if you're using it as a route to the airlines, VP/VR/VQ are the way to go. That was my original goal. However, a lot depends on what pipeline is available when you get out of primary flight training. The week I came out there were no jet slots, 5 multi slots and 1 helicopter slot.

Then you throw in the wild cards. Of the 6 of us, I had the top flight grades, so I should have gotten my choice, right? Wrong.

Of the other 5, 4 were married and one was a former P-3 aircrewman. It was the end of the fiscal year, so moving expense money was tight. It cost WAY less to move a single guy from Texas to Pensacola, so guess who got the helo orders...

That's the Navy way.

 

[Velocipede]

Wow! There is so much wrong with the post, I don't even know where to begin.

You don't have a problem with Freedom or GoJets? You should. The Freedom "A" guys could have ruined our profession. If JO got away with what he tried to pull, alter-ego carriers would be flying our flights for less pay and we'd be out of a job.

GoJets was another attempt to circumvent the work ALPA does to make our lives bearable in this industry. Those plane should be flown by Trans States Pilots, for much more pay then they're making.

Everything that is done in this industry reflects on everything else. Everyone takes from one carriers contracts and improves upon it for themselves. It's up to every carrier to help raise the rest of the industry up. If we stand idly by and let these carriers continue without resisting, management wins and screws us all.

This is not an every man for himself business, we all need to work together, both as individual pilot groups and as an industry as a whole.

As for the CAL scab thing, that's just ignorance at it's finest. Scabs are only scabs when a work group is on strike. The CAL strike was over and the union was back in place at Continental. The ones that were hired during the strike were scabs and always will be (forgiven or not). After that, unless they were to go out on strike, they are not scabs. That's the same as my FA calling me a scab because I'm crossing seat belts to tidy up the cabin.

Yeesh!

Thanks, ER. Saves me a post. You said it all. I don't think it will help, though. As they say, "Ignorance is bliss!"

 

[Velocipede]

With the notable exception of helo guys. It's really unfortunate that the rotary wing guys are so ignored by the airlines.

Why do you think rotary wing time is so worthless to the majors?

Because most of the guys who sit on hiring boards have never set foot in a helicopter and, therefore, can't appreciate what it takes to fly one.

 

[Velocipede]

I was under the impression that single pilot military flying was not held in as high a regard any more by the airlines due to the fact that 2-crew CRM skills obviously aren't needed in a single seat fighter jet. Yes, I know you coordinate over the radio with AWACS and all that jazz, but its not like working with and trusting another guy in the right seat. Is this somewhat true, or did someone feed me a bowl of BS?

All I can tell you is that as a Navy C-9 IP, some of the hardest guys to train were the single seat fighter/attack guys. They were used to doing everything for themselves all the time. They weren't too good at the division of responsibilities. One ex-Marine A-4 driver was particularly amusing. If he was flying, he wanted to do it all...stick/rudder, nav radios, talk..everything. If he wasn't flying he was a 150 lb. sandbag.

Some of the easiest to train were guys who were currently working as Regional turboprop pilots. Why? Usually they were flying 8 or 9 short legs a day with no autopilot. Good sticks, good situational awareness, good crew skills.

 

[Bumblebee]

All I can tell you is that as a Navy C-9 IP, some of the hardest guys to train were the single seat fighter/attack guys. They were used to doing everything for themselves all the time. They weren't too good at the division of responsibilities. One ex-Marine A-4 driver was particularly amusing. If he was flying, he wanted to do it all...stick/rudder, nav radios, talk..everything. If he wasn't flying he was a 150 lb. sandbag.

Some of the easiest to train were guys who were currently working as Regional turboprop pilots. Why? Usually they were flying 8 or 9 short legs a day with no autopilot. Good sticks, good situational awareness, good crew skills.

This is so true. From what I've read in my CRM studies, the airlines found out that there were some accidents caused by the fact that the they hired many great stick and rudder guys from the military who brought the very strict chain of command into the flight deck. This was fine under many circumstances, until the Captain makes a mistake that the first officer might have caught.

There were occurences during that era, with the Captain being unfamiliar or unwilling to accept the idea that the FO may have valuable and life saving information to share, that an accident that might have been avoided took place.

I would like to point out however, that nearly every time I have brought something to a Captain's attention, he showed me where I missed something.

Nevertheless, as I make the transition to captain, I will try to do it knowing that I will not always automatically know the answer, but that my job will be to know when I hear the correct answer. (but I better know the answer most of the time)

 

[Qgar]

Some of the easiest to train were guys who were currently working as Regional turboprop pilots. Why? Usually they were flying 8 or 9 short legs a day with no autopilot. Good sticks, good situational awareness, good crew skills.

You have NO idea how reassuring that is to me!