Douglas
Old School KSUX
hahaha, but it leads to by far the best memories, stories and nights out at the bar if you survive.
There is a whole lot of "watch this".
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Good post OP, it is an important first step.
Always trim for best glide first! No Exceptions!
- Thread starter A150K
- Start date
hahaha, but it leads to by far the best memories, stories and nights out at the bar if you survive.
There is a whole lot of "watch this".
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Good post OP, it is an important first step.
caliginousface
Frank N. Beans
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Pull early pull often.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
I don't recall where I read it, but it's supposed to be one of the conditions tested for certification that full aft trim is established at the point that the airplane will not stall with the power at idle. That will not necessarily be the same as best glide.
A150K
Well-Known Member
FTFA is exactly what my CFI buddy in the right seat said over lunch after the flight :crazy:. We all learn from our mistakes, no matter how mindless and stupid they are.
A150K
Well-Known Member
There's this retired AA capt. at my airport that owns a T182 that insists upon wearing his old uniform every single time he flies.....
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
Yeah, its one of the certification requirements that a plane cant stall at idle power with full back trim. Not necessarily that its established at that point.
FWIW, ive tried this in every plane ive flown, and if anything, most times it seems it could use a little bit more. Next time you're on final pull the power and trim all the way back and see what the plane does. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
I saw a kid flying the 150 I occasionally rent flying it in cargo shorts and a pilot shirt+epaulets. I should get some and flip them upside down to let all the kids like him know I fly the "Seventy Two".
One thing I have found with every single I have ever flown is that if you trim nose up to the stop it will get you within a few knots of best glide. When practicing engine outs with my students that was what I tought them first. The thing you have to watch out for, and teach them before the get the power back in (and after they have done a few stalls) is that of your not carefull you will induce a trim stall if your not quick with getting the trim out if the engine re-lights.
A150K
Well-Known Member
:laff: I flew my 150 in a wife beater today...
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Funny, that's one phase of flight I really don't want any surprises. Maybe it's just me
Wouldn't raising the nose be a better idea in this case? Best glide is the point on the lift drag curve that parasitic drag and induced drag are equal. Drag goes up either way and your rate of descent will increase either way however diving for the runway nets you unwated airspeed. If you're going long, pitch up to about 5 knots over stall, then push pitch back to best glide and take a look at the VSI. I practice this regularly when doing power off 180's
Another trick I was taught if you are high above your selelcted landing area was flying a figure 8 pattern over the approach end of the site rather than spirals, since you spend a greater percentage of time in your descent in a position to break off and head for the runway. I've found its easier for me to judge when I can make the runway this way than trying to spiral down, though the spiral is still a task on the Commercial ticket. If you're a bit high at the point you'd have to turn away from the landing site, then turn in and use slips, pitch changes and flaps or all 3 to loose the extra altitude.
p1l07m4n
SF340 Pirate, First Mate
It's always the mistakes, that I learn the most from. Especially the ones that leave me going, "what in the world was I thinking?"
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
I understand you dont want any "surprises," but are you saying that you dont want to actually "get a feel" for the plane? Maybe you should take your hands off the POH, and the yolk for that matter, and get a grip on how the plane wants to fly.
fish314
Well-Known Member
I think that your scenario applies regardless of whether you are over water or not. If you have equal landing situations in any direction, then it would just be best to land upwind. In most situations, though, one direction is clearly the best (even if it is still not that great). For example, if you are trying to make an open field surrounded by trees, then your direction is pretty much decided for you. So you need to think about the winds because they will definitely affect your ability to make that field.
The technique that I always heard was to take half of the headwind/tailwind component and add it to or subtract it from your best glide (headwind= add, tailwind = subtract). I think that in the case of a tailwind, though, you should only subtract until you get to min sink. Further slowing beyond that hurts rather than helps.
I'm not sure if this is the perfect mathematical solution to this problem, though. Anyone else have any ideas?
Mike H
Well-Known Member
You apparently assume I've never pulled power to idle and trimmed full nose-up- I have. It's a great way to do a steep spiral descent, for instance. But there are plenty of good reasons not to do it on short final.
fish314
Well-Known Member
You know, after reading this thread title again... I think that "Always trim (or pitch, if you'd prefer) for best glide first, no exceptions" is not true... at least the no exceptions part, anyway.
In the T-6 (single engine turboprop mil. trainer) the procedure was "Turn, climb, clean, check." Those kind of all happened simultaneously. TURN meant commence a 2g turn towards the nearest runway. CLIMB meant a 20 degree nose high climb to exchange altitude for airspeed to intercept best glide, CLEAN meant raise the gear and flaps, and CHECK meant check the engine, perform the appropriate checklist or memorized quick reaction emergency procedure. So, truly pitching and trimming for best glide happened quickly (during "climb") but it wasn't "always first, no exceptions."
Now, most of the people on this thread are probably talking about piston aircraft, and probably mostly in regards to Cessnas (or a few of the other common GA brands- Pipers, etc.). I think the take-away is that like almost everything else in aviation there is ALWAYS an exception and your results (and your aircraft's POH) may vary. I think too many CFI's (and military instructors also) teach "always" and "never" when they should be saying "usually" or "rarely/seldom".
In the T-6 (single engine turboprop mil. trainer) the procedure was "Turn, climb, clean, check." Those kind of all happened simultaneously. TURN meant commence a 2g turn towards the nearest runway. CLIMB meant a 20 degree nose high climb to exchange altitude for airspeed to intercept best glide, CLEAN meant raise the gear and flaps, and CHECK meant check the engine, perform the appropriate checklist or memorized quick reaction emergency procedure. So, truly pitching and trimming for best glide happened quickly (during "climb") but it wasn't "always first, no exceptions."
Now, most of the people on this thread are probably talking about piston aircraft, and probably mostly in regards to Cessnas (or a few of the other common GA brands- Pipers, etc.). I think the take-away is that like almost everything else in aviation there is ALWAYS an exception and your results (and your aircraft's POH) may vary. I think too many CFI's (and military instructors also) teach "always" and "never" when they should be saying "usually" or "rarely/seldom".
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Not rally that different. There is a subatntial line of thought even among piston instructors that you should exchange airspeed for altitude with an initial climb as you get to best glide.
The predominant line is GA in favor of pitching to the attitude that will result in best glide rather than climbing as you get to best glide is, I'm guessing, for two reasons.
One is purely practical, there really isn't all that much excess airspeed and the amount of altitude one gains will likely be minimal.
Second, is safety. Civilian piston reaction time and the reaction itself isn't as well trained as military. So the "oh crap" factor will probably negate any potential advantage. And, while we tend to train for the en-route failure, "pitch for best glide" also covers the most dangerous failure, engine failure shortly after takeoff, where a "climb" mentality is likely to result in a smoking hole.
The predominant line is GA in favor of pitching to the attitude that will result in best glide rather than climbing as you get to best glide is, I'm guessing, for two reasons.
One is purely practical, there really isn't all that much excess airspeed and the amount of altitude one gains will likely be minimal.
Second, is safety. Civilian piston reaction time and the reaction itself isn't as well trained as military. So the "oh crap" factor will probably negate any potential advantage. And, while we tend to train for the en-route failure, "pitch for best glide" also covers the most dangerous failure, engine failure shortly after takeoff, where a "climb" mentality is likely to result in a smoking hole.
fish314
Well-Known Member
We would do the same (regarding just holding a pitch and allowing airspeed to bleed off) if we were about 20-30 knots or less above best glide. Pretty much the same reasoning: you are just as likely to jack up the aggressive climb and get way slow, thus negating any advantage it would have given you. In that case, we just accept the additional speed bleeding down as a little extra forward distance. In the "all engine failure immediately following takeoff" scenario we would just eject :rawk: ... but that is not an option most people have! (In fact, since I've switched back to the KC-135 it isn't an option I have anymore, either).
The point I was trying to emphasize, though, was that there aren't too many rules out there that apply to every aircraft, every situation, etc., etc. Basically in reference to the "No Exceptions!" in the title. For every hard and fast rule out there someone has designed a system or an aircraft that is the exception. It just bugs me when people (especially CFI's or military IP's) say "always do this in an airplane" when they really should be saying "always do this in THIS airplane."