Altitude deviation accusation

T

truman bidwell

Active Member
Looking for a better nights sleep here.

The other day I was climbing to 5000feet per an IFR clearance.

As I'm leveling at 5000 controller gives us a frequency change. We read it back, as we are changing the frequency the controller says: King Air XX before you go I only cleared you to 5000.
We read back 5000. Controller then calls back and issues climb clearance to 7000 and reissues frequency change.

I climb up to 7,000 as I switch frequencies. After a few minutes go by the new controller calls and tells me to copy down a number due to possible pilot deviation.

I call.....and a supervisor asks me what happened? I told him I really don't know. I further stated I received a clearance to 11,000 along with a frequency change ....a clearance with which I complied. He seemed like he was trying to get me to admit to climbing through a cleared altitude or taking another aircraft's climb clearance. I made no such admission because that did not occurr. I went back and listened to the tapes on ATC live.net and found the version I describe above is exactly what was said on tape. I ask supervisor if there was a loss of separation. He tells me "no" but that he was turning it over to a FSDO to let them investigate.

I have filled out a NASA report but really don't need any aggravation. (Who needs this sort of aggravation?)

If they never asked me my altitude and there was no loss of separation can the FAA make an altitude deviation stick? I am unclear what the deviation must have been. I surmise they thought I was above my cleared altitude and having observed this cleared me to 7000 but I don't really know. When it became clear that this congenial call to the "fact finding supervisor" was actually a tape recorded fishing expedition for me to incriminate myself I stopped talking.

Any informed thoughts from people in the know would be appreciated.
 
Itchy

Itchy

Well-Known Member
I'm sure you already recorded the audio from atclive?
If it is as you say, it seems like it's their problem.

I would have requested the audio tapes. Not sure if they have to provide them though.
 
z987k

z987k

Well-Known Member
Itchy said:
I'm sure you already recorded the audio from atclive?
If it is as you say, it seems like it's their problem.

I would have requested the audio tapes. Not sure if they have to provide them though.
Click to expand...
You can FOIA them.
 
adk

adk

Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
It won't cover you in this situation, but look into the AOPA legal defense plan. $99 a year and you'll get a lawyer if this happens again.
 
ProudPilot

ProudPilot

Aeronautics Geek
truman bidwell said:
Looking for a better nights sleep here.

The other day I was climbing to 5000feet per an IFR clearance.

As I'm leveling at 5000 controller gives us a frequency change. We read it back, as we are changing the frequency the controller says: King Air XX before you go I only cleared you to 5000.
We read back 5000. Controller then calls back and issues climb clearance to 7000 and reissues frequency change.

I climb up to 7,000 as I switch frequencies. After a few minutes go by the new controller calls and tells me to copy down a number due to possible pilot deviation.

I call.....and a supervisor asks me what happened? I told him I really don't know. I further stated I received a clearance to 11,000 along with a frequency change ....a clearance with which I complied. He seemed like he was trying to get me to admit to climbing through a cleared altitude or taking another aircraft's climb clearance. I made no such admission because that did not occurr. I went back and listened to the tapes on ATC live.net and found the version I describe above is exactly what was said on tape. I ask supervisor if there was a loss of separation. He tells me "no" but that he was turning it over to a FSDO to let them investigate.

I have filled out a NASA report but really don't need any aggravation. (Who needs this sort of aggravation?)

If they never asked me my altitude and there was no loss of separation can the FAA make an altitude deviation stick? I am unclear what the deviation must have been. I surmise they thought I was above my cleared altitude and having observed this cleared me to 7000 but I don't really know. When it became clear that this congenial call to the "fact finding supervisor" was actually a tape recorded fishing expedition for me to incriminate myself I stopped talking.

Any informed thoughts from people in the know would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
So when were you cleared to 11k? I read your post as:

ATC :Flying, cleared to 5000, contact xxx
You: 5000, contact xxx
ATC: Confirm only cleared to 5000?
You:Affirm, 5000:
ATC:Cleared to 7000, contact xxx
You:7000, contact xxx
-Climbs to 7000 out of 5000-
You:xxx, with you climbing aaaa to 7000
ATC:Copy this phone number down

When did 11000 enter this?
 
C

Cheezypoof

Well-Known Member
Do you fly out of somewhere with other company with similar callsigns? If you said you heard the tape and it's exactly like your side of the story you have nothing to worry about. Sometimes controllers think they are clearing aircraft A (N1289) but accidentally clear aircraft B (N3489). Pilot B reads it back and they still think A read it back.
 
T

truman bidwell

Active Member
No.

Essentially, my takeaway from the whole thing (based upon the comments of the supervisor) was my mode C read something other than 5000. (I surmise it was higher). Upon observing this the controller issued a clearance to 7000. I accepted the clearance and climbed to 7.

A lot of supposition on my part but once I realized I was being interrogated/interviewed on tape I stopped talking or I would have asked a lot more questions. I asked if there was a loss of separation. He said "no." I told him I complied with my clearances, he asked for my ATP # and phone number. Promised me a phone call from a FSDO. I'm waiting for the call or an LOI.

FWIW. I think it's wrong they were taping my conversation without disclosing that fact. I had to ask.
 
C

cmac88

Well-Known Member
truman bidwell said:
Looking for a better nights sleep here.

The other day I was climbing to 5000feet per an IFR clearance.

As I'm leveling at 5000 controller gives us a frequency change. We read it back, as we are changing the frequency the controller says: King Air XX before you go I only cleared you to 5000.
We read back 5000. Controller then calls back and issues climb clearance to 7000 and reissues frequency change.

I climb up to 7,000 as I switch frequencies. After a few minutes go by the new controller calls and tells me to copy down a number due to possible pilot deviation.

I call.....and a supervisor asks me what happened? I told him I really don't know. I further stated I received a clearance to 11,000 along with a frequency change ....a clearance with which I complied. He seemed like he was trying to get me to admit to climbing through a cleared altitude or taking another aircraft's climb clearance. I made no such admission because that did not occurr. I went back and listened to the tapes on ATC live.net and found the version I describe above is exactly what was said on tape. I ask supervisor if there was a loss of separation. He tells me "no" but that he was turning it over to a FSDO to let them investigate.

I have filled out a NASA report but really don't need any aggravation. (Who needs this sort of aggravation?)

If they never asked me my altitude and there was no loss of separation can the FAA make an altitude deviation stick? I am unclear what the deviation must have been. I surmise they thought I was above my cleared altitude and having observed this cleared me to 7000 but I don't really know. When it became clear that this congenial call to the "fact finding supervisor" was actually a tape recorded fishing expedition for me to incriminate myself I stopped talking.

Any informed thoughts from people in the know would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Seems like a lot of aggravation over nothing.... welcome to dealing with the FAA. If you knew you were in the right I wouldn't sweat it too much. Was this a Center or Approach? I'd be very surprised if they even forwarded it to the FSDO after listening to it. Where I work (a Center) we can pull it up almost instantaneously and unless there was a truly bad violation I doubt it ever leaves the building.
 
eightballfreight

eightballfreight

Mission accomplished
If it is on the tapes the way you say, you have nothing to worry about. The FSDO will listen to them too.
The FAA will go after their own (ATC) just as fast as a pilot.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot

TrustMeI'maPilot

Well-Known Member
If it happened the way you say it happened, I would have forgotten about it already. You'll probably never hear or receive anything about it. Especially after filing an ASRS form.
 
Itchy

Itchy

Well-Known Member
I would follow up on it.

Many years ago, a company flight was taxing out with a clearance.
In the middle of doing that, ATC had a conniption, stating he did not follow his instructions.
ATC called the company, and basically told a story, and it was a doozy.
Company said "Please send us the tapes".
4 hours later, ATC supervisor called, and all but ordered pizza for the entire company. The ATC guy got a chunk tore out.
 
Bernoulli Fan

Bernoulli Fan

Controller
truman bidwell said:
No.

Essentially, my takeaway from the whole thing (based upon the comments of the supervisor) was my mode C read something other than 5000. (I surmise it was higher). Upon observing this the controller issued a clearance to 7000. I accepted the clearance and climbed to 7.

A lot of supposition on my part but once I realized I was being interrogated/interviewed on tape I stopped talking or I would have asked a lot more questions. I asked if there was a loss of separation. He said "no." I told him I complied with my clearances, he asked for my ATP # and phone number. Promised me a phone call from a FSDO. I'm waiting for the call or an LOI.

FWIW. I think it's wrong they were taping my conversation without disclosing that fact. I had to ask.
Click to expand...

Based on what you've said, I would also guess your Mode C readout was higher than 5,000 for some reason. The reason the controller was concerned even though there was no aircraft loss of separation was probably that his sector's ceiling was 5,000 and the next controller's started at 6,000, so it would be an airspace deviation if you had climbed through 5,000. If you know you had the altimeter set correctly and you never climbed above 5,000 until cleared, I wouldn't worry about it. If the FSDO calls, tell them those facts and say you have no control over what transponder/interrogator errors cause blips in the ATC Mode C readout.
 
BobDDuck

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
Wouldn't the controller simply asking what altitude you currently were at solve the problem? I've heard that plenty of times before.
 
B

BWER

Well-Known Member
It was probably a sup getting time. I don't know many controllers that would turn this in.

As Bob said...an altitude report from the pilot overrides mode c.

As others have said many times...controllers are not the police. We f stuff up as well...no need to go throwing rocks at a glass house.

No harm...no foul. Hope it turns out to be nothing.

For the phones....at my facility, center, any line in the control room is recorded.
 
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FM_Weasel

FM_Weasel

Well-Known Member
The AIM has some wisdom on recording phone lines at ATC facilities:

4−1−4. Recording and Monitoring

a. Calls to air traffic control (ATC) facilities
(ARTCCs, Towers, FSSs, Central Flow, and
Operations Centers) over radio and ATC operational
telephone lines (lines used for operational purposes
such as controller instructions, briefings, opening and
closing flight plans, issuance of IFR clearances and
amendments, counter hijacking activities, etc.) may
be monitored and recorded for operational uses such
as accident investigations, accident prevention,
search and rescue purposes, specialist training and
evaluation, and technical evaluation and repair of
control and communications systems.

b. Where the public access telephone is recorded,
a beeper tone is not required. In place of the “beep”
tone the FCC has substituted a mandatory requirement
that persons to be recorded be given notice they
are to be recorded and give consent. Notice is given
by this entry, consent to record is assumed by the
individual placing a call to the operational facility.
 
genot

genot

Well-Known Member
You filed a NASA form so forget it. I call that Monday and someone needs to remember what vectoring is really like. I recently cleared a guy PD to a higher altitude than the normal decent due to crossing traffic. When he descended below that I was armed and ready. 20 left maintain 4, problem solved.

Dude must have been a supe.
 
T

truman bidwell

Active Member
Roger that. I did file a NASA. Hard to not worry but I'm getting over it. 30 years and 18K violation free hours. Want to stay that way. I'm far from making mistakes though. Make em all the time!

Don't really understand the motivation behind threatening me with the FSDO particularly after I was co operative. I will think long and hard about calling the next time.

I've only been asked to call twice before:

1st time: I took off an uncontrolled field heading for field with a tower. Called tower and no response. Couldn't hear ATIS either. I thought the radio quit. Turned out it was xmitting, not receiving. Tower called me at uncontrolled field (this was before cell phones) after I had turned around and landed. They were concerned about us. Tower told me to never assume. Lesson learned.

2nd time. I was conducting an IOE with a new hire in an MD-80. We were told to cross a runway while a CAL wide body was on short final. It turned out he was issued a LAHSO clearance. I knew we could accept the clearance but the FO asked "are we allowed to do that?" That's all I need to hear. I stopped the plane. The controller became quite upset and asked us if we wanted to declare an emergency. I picked up the radio and told her no, we would just hold short. She made us wait 15 minutes. She was obviously having a "stress out" moment. They to asked me to call. I called and the fellow wanted to intimidate me at first and suggested pilots from my employer were engaged in a slow down. I politely set him straight and explained I was conducting an IOE and that if he wanted I would be happy to set up a meeting with him, me and my director of training. His tune changed and we made nice, nice. I chalked it up as one of the odder experiences of my career.

I'm hoping to do the same about this. Thanks everyone for the input.
 
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