I was just going through some random notes and study material that I have collected over the years and came accross some notes that said an alternate static source is required for IFR flight when flying for hire. Is this true? I dont ever recall hearing that and don't see it under 91.205.
alternate static?
- Thread starter FOD
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B767Driver
New Member
It doesn't appear that it is a requirement for Part 91. But it is listed as required IFR equipment under Part 135.163(e). So it's a Part 135 requirement.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
don't see it under 91.205.
[/ QUOTE ]<<sigh>> (shakes head sadly)
don't see it under 91.205.
[/ QUOTE ]<<sigh>> (shakes head sadly)
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're flying for hire, you're not flying part 91, so 91.205 is irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then how come 91.205 specifies that a landing light is needed for hire?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I didn't quite say that right. If you're operating for hire, you're operating under another set of rules that builds on part 91. So, 91.205 is not irrelevant, but it doesn't even come close to spelling out all the requirements.
[ QUOTE ]
If you're flying for hire, you're not flying part 91, so 91.205 is irrelevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then how come 91.205 specifies that a landing light is needed for hire?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I didn't quite say that right. If you're operating for hire, you're operating under another set of rules that builds on part 91. So, 91.205 is not irrelevant, but it doesn't even come close to spelling out all the requirements.
B767Driver
New Member
Lots of types of "for hire" flying allowed under Part 91 (and soley Part 91). Student Instruction, Nonstop sightseeing flights that begin and end at the same airport w/in 25sm, ferry flights, crop dusting, banner towing, aerial photography, fire fighting, pipeline patrol, and a few more pertaing to helicopters and hot air balloons.
Check out Part 119.1. It spells out the various certification requirements for air carriers and operators for compensation or hire. The above operations are exempt from Part 135/125/121. They can be conducted under the less stringent rules of Part 91.
Check out Part 119.1. It spells out the various certification requirements for air carriers and operators for compensation or hire. The above operations are exempt from Part 135/125/121. They can be conducted under the less stringent rules of Part 91.
[ QUOTE ]
Midlife, Whats the problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
91.205 is too general when you trying to use it to determine what equipment is required for flight.
For example, in a Citation CJ1, if you're missing the seat belt in the aircraft lavatory, the aircraft is no longer airworthy. No where in 91.205 does it specify that seatbelts in the lavatory are required.
Same thing for the stall warning in a Cessna 172. If it's inoperative, is the airplane airworthy for day VFR flight? No it's not. But 91.205 doesn't address anywhere that a stall warning indicator being required for VFR flight.
You need to start with 91.213, which will eventually refer to 91.205, but before it sends you to 91.205, it refers you first to the airplane's minimum equipment lists with the FAA letter of authorization, and kinds of operation lists, as well as the airplane's type certificate. (the requirement for the seatbelt in the lavatory for the CJ1 is in the airplane's type certificate.)
I imagine the requirement for the alternate static for IFR flight is somewhere in the airplane's type certificate under the certification basis section of the type certificate or it's required by an airworthiness directive somewhere.
Part 121,125, 135 operators are permitted to use the appropriate MEL required by Parts 121, 125, 135 in order to comply with 91.213.
Midlife, Whats the problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
91.205 is too general when you trying to use it to determine what equipment is required for flight.
For example, in a Citation CJ1, if you're missing the seat belt in the aircraft lavatory, the aircraft is no longer airworthy. No where in 91.205 does it specify that seatbelts in the lavatory are required.
Same thing for the stall warning in a Cessna 172. If it's inoperative, is the airplane airworthy for day VFR flight? No it's not. But 91.205 doesn't address anywhere that a stall warning indicator being required for VFR flight.
You need to start with 91.213, which will eventually refer to 91.205, but before it sends you to 91.205, it refers you first to the airplane's minimum equipment lists with the FAA letter of authorization, and kinds of operation lists, as well as the airplane's type certificate. (the requirement for the seatbelt in the lavatory for the CJ1 is in the airplane's type certificate.)
I imagine the requirement for the alternate static for IFR flight is somewhere in the airplane's type certificate under the certification basis section of the type certificate or it's required by an airworthiness directive somewhere.
Part 121,125, 135 operators are permitted to use the appropriate MEL required by Parts 121, 125, 135 in order to comply with 91.213.
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Midlife, Whats the problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
91.205 is too general when you trying to use it to determine what equipment is required for flight.
For example, in a Citation CJ1, if you're missing the seat belt in the aircraft lavatory, the aircraft is no longer airworthy. No where in 91.205 does it specify that seatbelts in the lavatory are required.
Same thing for the stall warning in a Cessna 172. If it's inoperative, is the airplane airworthy for day VFR flight? No it's not. But 91.205 doesn't address anywhere that a stall warning indicator being required for VFR flight.
You need to start with 91.213, which will eventually refer to 91.205, but before it sends you to 91.205, it refers you first to the airplane's minimum equipment lists with the FAA letter of authorization, and kinds of operation lists, as well as the airplane's type certificate. (the requirement for the seatbelt in the lavatory for the CJ1 is in the airplane's type certificate.)
I imagine the requirement for the alternate static for IFR flight is somewhere in the airplane's type certificate under the certification basis section of the type certificate or it's required by an airworthiness directive somewhere.
Part 121,125, 135 operators are permitted to use the appropriate MEL required by Parts 121, 125, 135 in order to comply with 91.213.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uugh... FAR's are making my head spin again. Where would it specify that the stall warning horn must be operative for day VFR in the 172? In the POH because it is a model specific requirement, or is it a class specific requirement that would be somewhere else in the FAR's?
[ QUOTE ]
Midlife, Whats the problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
91.205 is too general when you trying to use it to determine what equipment is required for flight.
For example, in a Citation CJ1, if you're missing the seat belt in the aircraft lavatory, the aircraft is no longer airworthy. No where in 91.205 does it specify that seatbelts in the lavatory are required.
Same thing for the stall warning in a Cessna 172. If it's inoperative, is the airplane airworthy for day VFR flight? No it's not. But 91.205 doesn't address anywhere that a stall warning indicator being required for VFR flight.
You need to start with 91.213, which will eventually refer to 91.205, but before it sends you to 91.205, it refers you first to the airplane's minimum equipment lists with the FAA letter of authorization, and kinds of operation lists, as well as the airplane's type certificate. (the requirement for the seatbelt in the lavatory for the CJ1 is in the airplane's type certificate.)
I imagine the requirement for the alternate static for IFR flight is somewhere in the airplane's type certificate under the certification basis section of the type certificate or it's required by an airworthiness directive somewhere.
Part 121,125, 135 operators are permitted to use the appropriate MEL required by Parts 121, 125, 135 in order to comply with 91.213.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uugh... FAR's are making my head spin again. Where would it specify that the stall warning horn must be operative for day VFR in the 172? In the POH because it is a model specific requirement, or is it a class specific requirement that would be somewhere else in the FAR's?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Midlife, Whats the problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
91.205 is too general when you trying to use it to determine what equipment is required for flight.
For example, in a Citation CJ1, if you're missing the seat belt in the aircraft lavatory, the aircraft is no longer airworthy. No where in 91.205 does it specify that seatbelts in the lavatory are required.
Same thing for the stall warning in a Cessna 172. If it's inoperative, is the airplane airworthy for day VFR flight? No it's not. But 91.205 doesn't address anywhere that a stall warning indicator being required for VFR flight.
You need to start with 91.213, which will eventually refer to 91.205, but before it sends you to 91.205, it refers you first to the airplane's minimum equipment lists with the FAA letter of authorization, and kinds of operation lists, as well as the airplane's type certificate. (the requirement for the seatbelt in the lavatory for the CJ1 is in the airplane's type certificate.)
I imagine the requirement for the alternate static for IFR flight is somewhere in the airplane's type certificate under the certification basis section of the type certificate or it's required by an airworthiness directive somewhere.
Part 121,125, 135 operators are permitted to use the appropriate MEL required by Parts 121, 125, 135 in order to comply with 91.213.
[/ QUOTE ]Thank you. You hit the reason for my sigh right on the head.
I have this theory that there is undue emphasis placed on 91.205. In training, we are given idiotic mnemonics like TOMATO FLAMES and GRAB CARD so we even memorize it for orals. The result is that too many pilots end up thinking that 91.205 is the be-all and end-all. 91.205 is probably the =smallest= piece of the required equipment analysis.
I periodically do a quiz in the forums I frequent and, so far, the general non-scientific result is that those who were asked to memorize this nonsense, especially through the use of mnemonics, were more likely to answer a required equipment question wrong than those who didn't. I even come across CFIs who were trained with the mnemonic get it wrong. (The question, BTW asks whether you can lawfully fly the airplane you regularly fly with the stall warning horn inoperative.)
So, I have a bit of a thing with questions that contain, "well, it's not in 91.205."
[ QUOTE ]
Midlife, Whats the problem?
[/ QUOTE ]
91.205 is too general when you trying to use it to determine what equipment is required for flight.
For example, in a Citation CJ1, if you're missing the seat belt in the aircraft lavatory, the aircraft is no longer airworthy. No where in 91.205 does it specify that seatbelts in the lavatory are required.
Same thing for the stall warning in a Cessna 172. If it's inoperative, is the airplane airworthy for day VFR flight? No it's not. But 91.205 doesn't address anywhere that a stall warning indicator being required for VFR flight.
You need to start with 91.213, which will eventually refer to 91.205, but before it sends you to 91.205, it refers you first to the airplane's minimum equipment lists with the FAA letter of authorization, and kinds of operation lists, as well as the airplane's type certificate. (the requirement for the seatbelt in the lavatory for the CJ1 is in the airplane's type certificate.)
I imagine the requirement for the alternate static for IFR flight is somewhere in the airplane's type certificate under the certification basis section of the type certificate or it's required by an airworthiness directive somewhere.
Part 121,125, 135 operators are permitted to use the appropriate MEL required by Parts 121, 125, 135 in order to comply with 91.213.
[/ QUOTE ]Thank you. You hit the reason for my sigh right on the head.
I have this theory that there is undue emphasis placed on 91.205. In training, we are given idiotic mnemonics like TOMATO FLAMES and GRAB CARD so we even memorize it for orals. The result is that too many pilots end up thinking that 91.205 is the be-all and end-all. 91.205 is probably the =smallest= piece of the required equipment analysis.
I periodically do a quiz in the forums I frequent and, so far, the general non-scientific result is that those who were asked to memorize this nonsense, especially through the use of mnemonics, were more likely to answer a required equipment question wrong than those who didn't. I even come across CFIs who were trained with the mnemonic get it wrong. (The question, BTW asks whether you can lawfully fly the airplane you regularly fly with the stall warning horn inoperative.)
So, I have a bit of a thing with questions that contain, "well, it's not in 91.205."
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Uugh... FAR's are making my head spin again. Where would it specify that the stall warning horn must be operative for day VFR in the 172? In the POH because it is a model specific requirement, or is it a class specific requirement that would be somewhere else in the FAR's?
[/ QUOTE ]In the case of the 172, if you go into the Equipment List in the Weight and Balance section of the POH, you'll see that it is listed with an "R" next to it, which means that it is required to be there and operating in order for the airplane to be airworthy.
I hope this doesn't sound like a rant because your question is understandable. It's the reason for the comments I just made in the other post. It's a training issue. Unless you were taught that 91.205 was a big deal, it wouldn't hurt your head.
Think about it for a moment. Forget FARs and legal interpretations. Here what the focus on 91.205 is saying:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is only one regulation that covers required equipment for all airplanes from a Taylorcraft (with an "electrical system" consisting of the battery in the handheld radio) up to a 767 regardless of whether it's being used to fly touch and goes around a private airfield or transport 400 paying passengers overseas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That concept makes =my= head spin.
FWIW, here's the standard "answer" I give to the stall warning horn quiz (it's a cut and paste):
==============================
The Answer
The answer ultimately depends on your airplane, but the chances are excellent you may =not= legally fly the airplane without a special flight permit under 91.213(e). For illustration, since so many of us are familiar with them, I'll refer to a generic Cessna 172.
My "project" is an article that argues that the emphasis on memorizing 91.205 is a bad thing. If your answer (even if you just thought about it but didn't respond) was "yes, because the stall warning horn is not listed in 91.205", please think about how learning TOMATO FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT has misled you.
Those who started with 91.213 rather than 91.205 were on the right track. Assuming that there is no MEL for the airplane, 91.213 tells us we cannot fly with =any= inoperative equipment unless two conditions are met:
1. The inoperative equipment is not one of those that is "always required" to work - 91.213(d)(2)
AND
2. If the equipment is not "always required", it must be removed or deactivated, placarded, and logged - 91.213(d)(3).
Starting with the first condition, there are 4 groups of "always required" equipment listed in 91.213(d)(2):
(a) Required by the airworthiness regulations in effect when the aircraft was certified. - 91.213(d)(2)(I)
(b) Marked required in the equipment list - 91.213(d)(2)(ii)
(c) Required by § 91.205 (or other Part 91 rule) - 91.213(d)(2)(iii) (Notice how the one we are forced to memorize is only a very small piece of the equation)
(d) Required to work by an AD - 91.213(d)(2(iv)
Group (a) can be tough. Regulations change. The current regulations for certification of normal, utility, acrobatic and commuter aircraft are under FAR Part 23, although older Cessna models were certified under the older Civil Air Regulations (CAR) Part 3. (If someone has a copy of the CAR, I'd love to see it!) But, if you take a look at FAR 23.207, you'll find that airplanes certified under Part 23 are required to have a stall warning system.
Fortunately, as we'll see, there is an overlap between group (a) and group (b).
Group (b) is pretty easy. Look in the Weight and Balance section of a modern POH and you'll find the equipment list. In the equipment list for Cessna 172 for example. You'll find the stall warning horn clearly marked "Required".
In terms of overlap with the (a) group, you probably won't be surprised to find that if a piece of equipment was required for certification, it also appears as "Required" in the equipment list.
Do you fly an older airplane without an marked equipment list? All is not lost. Each airplane has a Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that identifies the rules under which the airplane was certified. They are available online at www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet. The TCDS that applies to all 172 models through the Q series contains the requirement for a stall warning indicator.
We don't even have to get to group (c) (the one we are forced to memorize). And it wouldn't help us a bit if we did look at it.
Removal, deactivation and placarding under 91.213(d)(3) don't make any difference. Placarding only helps with equipment that isn't "always required". The stall warning horn =is= required.
BTW, for those who say, "I don't care if were legal to fly without it, =I= wouldn't", congratulations! That's really the most important step and the one that makes the difference between a pilot and someone just going for a ride.
==============================
Uugh... FAR's are making my head spin again. Where would it specify that the stall warning horn must be operative for day VFR in the 172? In the POH because it is a model specific requirement, or is it a class specific requirement that would be somewhere else in the FAR's?
[/ QUOTE ]In the case of the 172, if you go into the Equipment List in the Weight and Balance section of the POH, you'll see that it is listed with an "R" next to it, which means that it is required to be there and operating in order for the airplane to be airworthy.
I hope this doesn't sound like a rant because your question is understandable. It's the reason for the comments I just made in the other post. It's a training issue. Unless you were taught that 91.205 was a big deal, it wouldn't hurt your head.
Think about it for a moment. Forget FARs and legal interpretations. Here what the focus on 91.205 is saying:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is only one regulation that covers required equipment for all airplanes from a Taylorcraft (with an "electrical system" consisting of the battery in the handheld radio) up to a 767 regardless of whether it's being used to fly touch and goes around a private airfield or transport 400 paying passengers overseas.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That concept makes =my= head spin.
FWIW, here's the standard "answer" I give to the stall warning horn quiz (it's a cut and paste):
==============================
The Answer
The answer ultimately depends on your airplane, but the chances are excellent you may =not= legally fly the airplane without a special flight permit under 91.213(e). For illustration, since so many of us are familiar with them, I'll refer to a generic Cessna 172.
My "project" is an article that argues that the emphasis on memorizing 91.205 is a bad thing. If your answer (even if you just thought about it but didn't respond) was "yes, because the stall warning horn is not listed in 91.205", please think about how learning TOMATO FLAMES or GOOSE A CAT has misled you.
Those who started with 91.213 rather than 91.205 were on the right track. Assuming that there is no MEL for the airplane, 91.213 tells us we cannot fly with =any= inoperative equipment unless two conditions are met:
1. The inoperative equipment is not one of those that is "always required" to work - 91.213(d)(2)
AND
2. If the equipment is not "always required", it must be removed or deactivated, placarded, and logged - 91.213(d)(3).
Starting with the first condition, there are 4 groups of "always required" equipment listed in 91.213(d)(2):
(a) Required by the airworthiness regulations in effect when the aircraft was certified. - 91.213(d)(2)(I)
(b) Marked required in the equipment list - 91.213(d)(2)(ii)
(c) Required by § 91.205 (or other Part 91 rule) - 91.213(d)(2)(iii) (Notice how the one we are forced to memorize is only a very small piece of the equation)
(d) Required to work by an AD - 91.213(d)(2(iv)
Group (a) can be tough. Regulations change. The current regulations for certification of normal, utility, acrobatic and commuter aircraft are under FAR Part 23, although older Cessna models were certified under the older Civil Air Regulations (CAR) Part 3. (If someone has a copy of the CAR, I'd love to see it!) But, if you take a look at FAR 23.207, you'll find that airplanes certified under Part 23 are required to have a stall warning system.
Fortunately, as we'll see, there is an overlap between group (a) and group (b).
Group (b) is pretty easy. Look in the Weight and Balance section of a modern POH and you'll find the equipment list. In the equipment list for Cessna 172 for example. You'll find the stall warning horn clearly marked "Required".
In terms of overlap with the (a) group, you probably won't be surprised to find that if a piece of equipment was required for certification, it also appears as "Required" in the equipment list.
Do you fly an older airplane without an marked equipment list? All is not lost. Each airplane has a Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) that identifies the rules under which the airplane was certified. They are available online at www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet. The TCDS that applies to all 172 models through the Q series contains the requirement for a stall warning indicator.
We don't even have to get to group (c) (the one we are forced to memorize). And it wouldn't help us a bit if we did look at it.
Removal, deactivation and placarding under 91.213(d)(3) don't make any difference. Placarding only helps with equipment that isn't "always required". The stall warning horn =is= required.
BTW, for those who say, "I don't care if were legal to fly without it, =I= wouldn't", congratulations! That's really the most important step and the one that makes the difference between a pilot and someone just going for a ride.
==============================
B767Driver
New Member
Some pretty good info in this topic. A brief summary may be in order. AC91.67 addresses this topic marvelously. If you don't have a copy...get one...and keep it in your flight bag.
1. If you have an approved MEL and LOA from the FAA that's all you need. That's why they are so popular. You only need to consult one document. If you operate under an MEL you can't even legally use 91.213 to fly with inoperative equipment.
2. If no MEL follow this procedure to see if you are allowed fly with an inop component. 1) Check the Kinds of Operation List in the POH. 2) Check the Type Certificate Data Sheet (you can get this from the local FSDO). 3) Check all AD's. 4) Check Part 91.205 and all of Part 91 (Mode C, ELT's, etc). and 5) The PIC. If the PIC decides it's a no-go item...then it doesn't matter what anything else says. If the item is not listed in any of the previous places...then you can fly without it. Remember that you need to remove or deactivate and placard the item. The placard can by as simple as a piece of masking tape that says "inoperative".
3. Can the PIC deactivate the system and placard? If preventive maintenance...then yes. If not...then no.
4. How long can you fly with the item inoperative? Until the next required FAA inspection. (100 hr, annual, etc.)
1. If you have an approved MEL and LOA from the FAA that's all you need. That's why they are so popular. You only need to consult one document. If you operate under an MEL you can't even legally use 91.213 to fly with inoperative equipment.
2. If no MEL follow this procedure to see if you are allowed fly with an inop component. 1) Check the Kinds of Operation List in the POH. 2) Check the Type Certificate Data Sheet (you can get this from the local FSDO). 3) Check all AD's. 4) Check Part 91.205 and all of Part 91 (Mode C, ELT's, etc). and 5) The PIC. If the PIC decides it's a no-go item...then it doesn't matter what anything else says. If the item is not listed in any of the previous places...then you can fly without it. Remember that you need to remove or deactivate and placard the item. The placard can by as simple as a piece of masking tape that says "inoperative".
3. Can the PIC deactivate the system and placard? If preventive maintenance...then yes. If not...then no.
4. How long can you fly with the item inoperative? Until the next required FAA inspection. (100 hr, annual, etc.)