Alpa Doesn't Look As Good As It Used To

jtrain609 said:
Or do you really think ALPA will reign in scope at the mainline level? I think they're too preoccupied, and too short sighted to do so and if they won't do it, somebody needs to.
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They are counting on you being too preoccupied and short sighted. As long as the regional pilots buy this setup it's the way it will be. Most of you have been in the industry such a short time you think this is normal.

ALPA let this happen because they could not envision regionals being more than little turbo-props flown by pilots not qualified to fly for the majors. Of course scope exceptions, like any other concession, just opened the door for more. Which brings us to today.

Your ALPA contract means very little when your company has no binding ties to any mainline carrier. Your hard won contract can be gone in a day if your mainline partner decides to cut your company out.

Can it be fixed? Definitely not if no one tries. When I went to my rep shortly after 9/11 and said I thought we ought to use the upcoming opening of our contract to start reeling in scope exceptions I thought he was going to punch me. If that's any indication, if the regionals start trying to open this up, the reaction from mainline could be an emotional one.

It's up to you guys now. ALPA is your union. I put my 2 cents in when Delta was trying to decide whether to do the regional flying in-house or through outside contractors. At least then my ALPA rep laughed at me instead of turning purple with anger. That was back when they thought you regional guys were just a running joke that had nothing to do with their careers.

But whatever happens I hope you guys stop fighting with each other. Your issues are not with other regional pilots, union or not.
 
My personal take can be explained by this example: I walked into my friends house one day and looked over. I saw on his kitchen counter an ALPA magazine that his dad left on the counter when he was over. I picked it up, the cover had on it about 50 white males with their arms crossed, every last one of them frowning, grey hair, and clearly over the age of 40 or so. Not one minority, not one female, not one person that would be represented at today's current regional. In fact as other people came through, some of them pilots, the jokes ensued "oh god look how unhappy they all are at their 3 trips a month on the 777 making a mere 170,000 grand a year... poor them" laughing ensues. Now why on earth would me or my friend (or any other young kid flying his butt off in '72s just trying to make it, or any kid 15 months into express jet) actualy pick this up and read it. There is a HUGE disconnect, just my .02.
 
Does anyone know if ALPA's still busy with the whole US East vs West fiasco? When and if they are we need to get some delegates together to go meet with ALPA national.
 
Yes, the USAir crybabies are still causing problems. Things have been delayed a bit for various reasons. The ultimate outcome is unlikely to be favorable. It will probably be settled within the next few months.
 
If mainline pilots can't even iron out their own differences with their own pilots (ie US Air and AWA), then there's not a whole lot of hope for, say, Delta and Comair to come to an agreement. About the best relationship out there is probably NWA, Compass and Mesaba, and even then you'll be looking at high fences on any kind of agreement. Fact is, mainline guys look at what they have as something they've fought long and hard for (and they have), and a lot of guys will be reluctant to share that with any of the regional guys despite the overall gains that could come out of it.

Scope is only as good as the management running the airline. We've got (on paper) an IRON clad scope clause that specifically states that all flying done by Pinnacle or a company in possession of Pinnacle (ie a holding company) MUST BE DONE BY PILOTS ON THE PINNACLE SENIORITY LIST. Yet, there's Colgan flying in direct violation of that. I'm not pointing fingers at the Colgan pilots. A majority of them didn't ask for that. I'm looking squarely at our management team. The one that whined for a relief from the scope clause so they could start up a non-union carrier. The whining stopped when they bought Colgan. Apparently, they needed relief for a startup but they figured an existing carrier would be exempt. We're still waiting on a ruling for that one, depsite the fact that is cut and dry in the contract. Meanwhile, the scope clause is violated hourly.

As for JS wars.....it's not really gonna help anyone. It'll churn up even more animosity towards ALPA at non-union carriers, and likely get all of them to unite against ALPA. The best solution is to try to educate those people you DO find on your JS that aren't at a union carrier and let them know what benefits ALPA has to offer. Odds are they haven't even heard about the medical advice, job fairs or loss of license insurance offered through ALPA.
 
Okay then, JS wars and negative "convincing" actions might be a bad idea.

If that's not the way to go- where should we go?

Education will only take you so far. The proverbial horse and water scenario applies.

Maybe a word of mouth campaign to convince those who don't otherwise know?

Personally I think ALPA needs a much higher profile. There's got to be a way to get the point across.

Maybe pro-union lobbying shouldn't just be for when a union drive is on? Some time spent in the food court at ORD with some Skywest pilots, for example?

I'm hoping sometime in the spring we can all meet for a face-to-face. It makes conversation flow easier.
 
Maybe we should do what the management is doing.

Need to convince University and Colleges to start up LARGE labor degree programs. Instead of these pilots earning management, economics, or finance degrees, they can now earn a pro-labor relation degree.
 
kellwolf said:
If mainline pilots can't even iron out their own differences with their own pilots (ie US Air and AWA), then there's not a whole lot of hope for, say, Delta and Comair to come to an agreement. About the best relationship out there is probably NWA, Compass and Mesaba, and even then you'll be looking at high fences on any kind of agreement. Fact is, mainline guys look at what they have as something they've fought long and hard for (and they have), and a lot of guys will be reluctant to share that with any of the regional guys despite the overall gains that could come out of it.

Scope is only as good as the management running the airline. We've got (on paper) an IRON clad scope clause that specifically states that all flying done by Pinnacle or a company in possession of Pinnacle (ie a holding company) MUST BE DONE BY PILOTS ON THE PINNACLE SENIORITY LIST. Yet, there's Colgan flying in direct violation of that. I'm not pointing fingers at the Colgan pilots. A majority of them didn't ask for that. I'm looking squarely at our management team. The one that whined for a relief from the scope clause so they could start up a non-union carrier. The whining stopped when they bought Colgan. Apparently, they needed relief for a startup but they figured an existing carrier would be exempt. We're still waiting on a ruling for that one, depsite the fact that is cut and dry in the contract. Meanwhile, the scope clause is violated hourly.

As for JS wars.....it's not really gonna help anyone. It'll churn up even more animosity towards ALPA at non-union carriers, and likely get all of them to unite against ALPA. The best solution is to try to educate those people you DO find on your JS that aren't at a union carrier and let them know what benefits ALPA has to offer. Odds are they haven't even heard about the medical advice, job fairs or loss of license insurance offered through ALPA.
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And you know what I've noticed? Even though there are clear contract violations, the legal system *still* somehow rules in favor of the violator. Maybe we need to start sending cases to Judge Judy?
 
cencal83406 said:
No-one really answered my question about the pay..... 1:16 = 1:15 but 1:14 = 1:00 essentially..... was wondering about that.
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Sorry I forgot to answer this. Actually, I think you've got it wrong about how the trip values work. If the trip value is 1:00 and you block 1:16, then you only get paid 1:01. You only get the amount extra that exceeds the 15 minute buffer. Basically, you give 15 minutes to the company for free any time you overblock. But yes, the union is working on fixing this for your next contract. It was one of the "major goals" we set when we were drafting the negotiating goals, along with 100% cancellation pay, limiting reduced rest overnights, etc...
 
cencal83406 said:
And you know what I've noticed? Even though there are clear contract violations, the legal system *still* somehow rules in favor of the violator. Maybe we need to start sending cases to Judge Judy?
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This is why we need pro-labor judges and politicians. Your entire career is in the hands of those in Washington and those in the courts. No matter how strong your union is, and how unified your pilot group is, you'll never win if Washington and the courts are against you. Vote pro-labor in November.
 
PCL_128 said:
Sorry I forgot to answer this. Actually, I think you've got it wrong about how the trip values work. If the trip value is 1:00 and you block 1:16, then you only get paid 1:01. You only get the amount extra that exceeds the 15 minute buffer. Basically, you give 15 minutes to the company for free any time you overblock. But yes, the union is working on fixing this for your next contract. It was one of the "major goals" we set when we were drafting the negotiating goals, along with 100% cancellation pay, limiting reduced rest overnights, etc...
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Which is why our latest lines in MEM are capped at 89.5 hours of CREDIT.....yet it'll go up to 93 hours of BLOCK. That's right. Thanks to how the pay structure works, everyone's flying an average of 3.5 hours a month free of charge.
 
That's about right for the winter months. ALPA E & FA calculated that the 15 minute "freebie" is costing every pilot about 2% gross earnings every year. Add in 100% cancellation pay (worth 2%) and 100% deadhead pay (worth 1%), you'd get a 5% raise without even touching the payrates. This is why work rules matter so much.
 
PCL_128 said:
That's about right for the winter months. ALPA E & FA calculated that the 15 minute "freebie" is costing every pilot about 2% gross earnings every year. Add in 100% cancellation pay (worth 2%) and 100% deadhead pay (worth 1%), you'd get a 5% raise without even touching the payrates. This is why work rules matter so much.
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Oh trust me. Without 100% DH and CX pay, any TA is getting a big fat "NO" from me.
 
Basically ALPA needs an image overhaul. In order to attract the "me" and SJS generation, it has to happen. ALPA needs to diversify itself as well, to include younger pilots, minorities and women in it's advertisements, magazine and website. ALPA needs to put advertisments and or articles in other media outlets, such as AOPA's magazines, and web based media as well, such as Jetcareers. ALPA needs to come up with a "road show" type lecture that could travel to ERAU, UND, and flight academy type operations like ATP, DCA, and Flight Safety. Like Firebird said in his previous post, there also needs to be a "road show" at hubs even when there's no union drive going on. ALPA needs to come up with a way to show that the US fiasco was not due to ALPA, but to the local MEC, a long with ALPA having nothing to do with Mesa's contract problems or Eagle's upgrade time. I know a bunch of Mesa piltos who went to SkyWest and didn't vote, because they blame ALPA for the hell thet they endured over there. You debunk the myths, you'll get more open minded pilots.
 
I'm fairly certain too that the pilots who get into this industry with the anti-union mentality are not going to be attracted to a union no matter how hard, or how much money is spent trying to convince them that a union is not the anti-christ that a large portion of this country believes.

Some pilots just flock towards the non-union operators for the sake that they are non-union, fearing the devil that lurks at the union operators.

But, that's the ignorance that some professional pilots hold.
 
I honestly think the anti-union mentality, at least in the beginning of one's career, isn't as wide spread as some think. Most of the anti-union sentiment comes from those that have been at union carriers and blame the union for their trouble. I'd wager most of the time those people don't understand how it works. For example, we've got guys here calling for our union leaders' blood b/c they want to axe the "fly now, grieve later" thing. Yeah, I'm all for that, but doing so would constitute an illegal job action under the RLA. Some people don't understand that, and so they take their frustrations out on the convenient target: ALPA. Similar situation as US Air. The MEC didn't want to look in the mirror to face the fact that they screwed up by hardballing the arbitrator, so they focus on a convenient target: ALPA national. They've done a good job of convincing the other pilots at US Air East that they're in the right, too.

I agree with Howard that ALPA needs a SERIOUS image overhaul. It's seen by a lot of people as a "good ole boys club." Heck, I've seen NATCO at ERAU fairs, but no ALPA. I think if ALPA did a better job of educating those on the career path instead of already in the career, they'd get a boost. Some people get into this job and realize that it's not what they thought it would be. Instead of realizing they had a serious lack of research going in, they target ALPA since they were responsible for signing the CBA they operate under, as is the case with Mesa. Lots of young Mesa guys hate ALPA for signing the deal they operate under without understanding the whys and hows of how that deal got signed. They never catch on that most of the people that voted for that contract aren't there anymore. Yet, some will be the first to say "I'm only here to get my time and get out." To me, that's pretty darn hypocritical.
 
The sooner we realize that not everybody will go onto the mainline airlines and that we might well get stuck at the regionals for the rest of our careers the better.

How many of you guys know great guys with four year degree's, a few thousand hours of TPIC and can't get a call from anybody for an interview? I can think of a few off the top of my head, and they're got their applications out! I know there's usually something else in their past, but seriously guys meeting mimimums isn't everything! If people would stop looking at the regionals as "Oh I'll just be here a few years and leave" and realize they might be stuck for A LONG TIME, I think things would change.
 
meritflyer said:
Doug,

I think it's an excellent idea. Personally, I am a little disappointed ALPA hasn't done more to promote itself, the profession, and it's message to the young pilots of today.

However, it is the pilots that make ALPA not the other way around.
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I agree with you. ALPA has always worked hard for pilots but at times that work has not included reaching out to the next generation. Many times ALPA is only noticed when things go wrong at an airline and blame is generously handed out. ALPA does have is share of imperfections but so does our nation however; we still get up each day and become a part of the solution and hope our contribution make a difference to our country’s benefit. The same goes for ALPA.

On Monday there will be a new face to ALPA with respect to reaching out to the next generation of pilots. It’s not perfect but it’s going to take effort and enthusiasm on everyone’s part to improve this new resource intended to help the next set of pilots learn about this great profession and not just the union/non-union stuff. To learn about the life of an airline pilot, the requirements and responsibility, and to hear from those that have been there for decades and those that are new too.

More to come...
 
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