Besides making sure NOTAMs were reviewed, having hold fuel would be nice. They flew at planned altitude and route, then tell tower they were minutes away from reserve/bingo fuel meant they had no hold fuel on board and diverting to GFK was too risky. With hold fuel, this could've been a diversion instead of making it to the news.
Allegiant makes headlines
- Thread starter Huhhhh
- Start date
McCrosky
Well-Known Member
Well, I would have definitely planned hold fuel into KFAR on a clear weather day given the high volume of traffic there. I mean, KORD got nothing on KFAR!!
How much holding fuel should you plan to a low traffic airport with no known or anticipated delays?
im not a huge fan of arbitrary extra gas. Maybe because my first dispatch job was at a small carrier that was always on the edge when it came to money. No one ever questioned putting additional fuel I if there was a reason (known or anticipated delays), but just adding fuel for •s and giggles got you the wrong kind of attention.
In this case there was clearly a mistake, I don't know enough to guess who screwed up (the FAA, the NoTAM office, the airline, etc) but just adding arbitrary fuel is a bad solution. IMHO
PlaneFan82
Well-Known Member
They also had more than enough fuel to head up to GFK, it's only 65-70nm away! Just my .02, I think the crew wanted to avoid a diversion and the costs associated with it, so they continually offered up excuses as to why they could not divert. Despite what the news said, they had their 45 minutes of reserve, and contrary to what pilots say, an airplane does not magically fall out of the sky when there is 45 minutes of gas left.
pljenkins
Resident Knucklehead
PlaneFan82 said:
This.
Reserve fuel, once off the ground, is fuel. You may not PLAN to burn into reserve fuel, but once the airplane is in the air any fuel You can deliver to the engines is usable. If you plan a flight burn+reserve and the plane 3 miles in front of yours folds the gear on landing and shuts down the airport it's not like a message comes across the screen saying "game over". You are going somewhere else, you are burning into your reserve and the FAA will be perfectly okay with that.
Also, if you have Chamber of Commerce weather from out to in planning burn plus reserve is perfectly acceptable. I love when I start getting the "what if" treatment from guys I plan min fuel for. What if this, that or the other.
"What if the airport closes?"
I'll tell you. That's my job.
"Where will we go?"
Somewhere else
"We won't have the gas!"
You've got 45 minutes plus, Skippy. Trust me you will be on the ground at any one of the 35 other suitable airports long before you flame out.
If you aren't comfortable sending airplanes to low volume airports with one line VMC TAFs with min plus reserve, I would have questions about your overall confidence as a dispatcher (or pilot). Yes gas is good, but it's amazing how many experienced pilots and dispatchers don't realize that it takes fuel to fly fuel around, and since we are ultimately in the business to make money, wasting gas is wasting money.
Summerdayz
Well-Known Member
With almost 20 years in the regionals I have found a number of crews who will fudge on their fuel...telling me they have less than they really do. I believe their comfort factor of how much fuel they consider their "bingo fuel" (down to fuel needed to go to their listed alternate.. or.. declare an emergency and land at nearest suitable airport if no alternate listed) is higher than my flight system comes up with. Sometimes they are right on due to the fact that our flight planning system isn't always as accurate on current conditions...altitude, speed, ATC vectoring and spacing, etc). Other times I find a few are taught that they can never touch their 45 min reserve. Obviously it isn't an appropriate time to discuss that after the flight has departed.
Also our regional has a set minimum number of minutes for flights without alternates where the crew has fuel to land at nearest airport with a 5000 ft runway (more involved but I won't bore wit details). As well as a set minimum number of minutes hold for flights with alternates. We are currently 1 of a number of other regionals for our mainline that are undergoing a new fuel efficiency policy, so this is still evolving. I would imagine Allegiant has their own set of minimum number of hold fuel guidelines as well.
BayouMLU
Well-Known Member
I understand there was an FDC and a D NOTAM for this particular issue and they sorta were in conflict with each other. It sounds as if G4 was looking at the D NOTAM and the Tower was looking at the FDC NOTAM. My question is why did the FAA publish an FDC NOTAM for a TFR to allow a couple hours for a Blue Angels practice.
Summerdayz
Well-Known Member
Boy that sure explains most of the confusion.
Aren't TFRs (airspace-related) usually published in FDC NOTAMs, rather than in a D NOTAM?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Having been in a similar situation on July 4 of 2014, I can see how something like this can happen. However, mine was quite different.
LGA - TVC.
EXTREMELY Long taxi out of LGA (re: 1.5 hours), meant they we were approaching TVC about 10 minutes after the TFR went up. Have to love Cleveland center as they allowed us to hold 75 miles from TVC while the Blues "practiced."
And practiced.
And practiced.
And practiced...
And practiced again...
We, however, were aware of the NOTAM(s), yet our company only provided us with our required reserve fuel and a little hit of "EXTRA". We managed to be able to hold for about 30 minutes and finally banged out to GRR.
No harm in some extra block and associated credit.
But it does suck that the Blues can lock up an airport for two-three hours and expect the rest of the ongoing commerce that airlines provide to just sit around waiting.
LGA - TVC.
EXTREMELY Long taxi out of LGA (re: 1.5 hours), meant they we were approaching TVC about 10 minutes after the TFR went up. Have to love Cleveland center as they allowed us to hold 75 miles from TVC while the Blues "practiced."
And practiced.
And practiced.
And practiced...
And practiced again...
We, however, were aware of the NOTAM(s), yet our company only provided us with our required reserve fuel and a little hit of "EXTRA". We managed to be able to hold for about 30 minutes and finally banged out to GRR.
No harm in some extra block and associated credit.
But it does suck that the Blues can lock up an airport for two-three hours and expect the rest of the ongoing commerce that airlines provide to just sit around waiting.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Eh, at least they didn't have wild boars close an airport like happened to me last night. The best part was we were told through official sources that zoo animals were on the runway. It made for a very long night. Now back to wine on the French Riviera...
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Durka Durka...Mohammed Jihad.
Traverse City isn't THAT busy...how they couldn't find an hour period, perhaps three times during the day, to conduct their "practice" runs is more what I'm wondering. Obviously its over and done with, but of course it still appears they're holding airport's and their airspace hostage.
And this is clearly not a judgment on the decision-making of this Executives in the Cockpit flight crew.
pljenkins
Resident Knucklehead
Waidaminnut? Didn't you say you were an hour and a half late into Tragic City? Seems to me that had you arrived on time as scheduled you wouldn't have had this problem... Can't hang the airport for not adjusting to you guys being late! AD closed is AD closed. Once you realized you weren't gonna make your schedule you probably should have done some leg work to see if they would accommodate you. Just showing up at their doorstep and demanding to be let in? I'd have told you to pound sand too!
These are examples of lazy dispatching. You knew there was a problem before the wheels were in the wells! Not taking steps to ensure a successful result is on you, not the Gub-ment.
These are examples of lazy dispatching. You knew there was a problem before the wheels were in the wells! Not taking steps to ensure a successful result is on you, not the Gub-ment.
BayouMLU
Well-Known Member
Yes. I'm not sure if a TFR was issued for this. In my (limited) exposure to this scenario it is not, but I am not going to discount the possibility (likelihood) that I am wrong. Looking at both NOTAMs, I can understand how the average dispatcher/pilot would have been confused and/or left there thinking was no problem in continuing on as planned.
I can tell you from personal experience that I would have been on the phone with the tower locally and had recorded confirmation that the flight would have had no issues landing at the new ETA though. It would not be the first time I contacted an airport or tower for clarification.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Wait, so you're telling me you didn't read what I wrote?
It was an hour and a half taxi just escaping LGA. Additionally, it would appear that you believe me to be upset with getting extra credit. I could care less.
My point is that no aerial demonstration team should be able to lock down air transport commerce for an extended period of time (re: 3-4 hours...).
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Points for using the right example of this phrase.
No reason they can't form up the solos with the diamond, and take a few laps around the pattern at the top of the Delta airspace to accommodate one inbound when it got close and on final.
Agreed. Although I'm surprised that they'd have more than an hour's worth of fuel onboard anyway on their Hornets, so why they'd need such a long continuous closure block, is beyond me.
pljenkins
Resident Knucklehead
Certainly not upset with extra credit. I COULDN'T care less. And yeah. I re-read your post... Not sure what I missed there.
Here's my point. You, the facility user, are not the airport authority. The airport authority has the right to close the airport for whatever reason it deems necessary to do so. Had you arrived at the scheduled time, you would not have run into this issue. It is entirely likely that the NOTAM was strategically placed so as to NOT interfere with your scheduled operation. Your being late caused this issue. Who's fault it was that you were late is irrelevant to the airport and I would guarantee that TVC had NO visibility as to the reason you were late. The airport authority is NOT monitoring conditions in LGA. So let's look at this scenario as it has been presented...
Dispatch plans your flight on time, takes note of the NOTAM and confirms that it does not interfere with your arrival time. Release sent, push and hit the typical LGA traffic jam. What SHOULD have happened was the crew and dispatch should have been in communication about when they expect to ACTUALLY leave LGA. LGA sucks, but it generally sucks predictably, so once you get to about 3rd or 4th in line crew and dispatch should be looking at arrival time and comparing it with the status of the airport at that time. Dispatch should have noticed at some point that you guys are getting close to the AD Closed time and placed a call to TVC to alert them BEFORE you were off the ground. With an hour and a half of lead time you'd have stood a LOT better chance of them negotiating with the Navy and have them delay the start of their routine by the 10 minutes you needed to get in. That call was never placed, according to what I've read. So TVC, oblivious to your revised schedule (because it's not their job to monitor your flight) shuts down the airport and the Navy goes about their business. Now here comes you. Cleveland Center notices the AD is closed and throws you into a hold, because you know, the airport is closed. Consider for a moment you would get the same treatment if you showed up at LGA after curfew. Doesn't matter how busy or important the airport is, they close when they close. If you want to negotiate those terms, its incumbent upon YOU, the company, to get on the blower with the airport authority BEFORE it becomes an operational issue and see what can be done.
Sure they could have, but they are under no such obligation to do so. Also, the story gave no indication that TVC was called by the company at any time during this event. I don't know if they were assuming that Cleveland Center was going to plead the case for them (they most certainly will not, ever) or they assumed the airport somehow knew that they were holding for the airport (unlikely, since again it's not their job to monitor movements outside of their airspace)... Just struck me as odd that there was an assumption that their showing up would cause the waters to part for them. Unless the word "emergency" crops up, ATC can't be bothered with your petty requests, no matter whether you are a student pilot or the Queen of England. If you are depending on Command Center to help you, you're barking up the wrong tree. I mean, don't get me wrong, they MIGHT, but that's not their yob, main.
I do agree that it seems a little burdensome to shut down the airport for a 4 hour block when realistically at least half that time will be spent with no aircraft in the air at the airport, but who knows what else was going on there. Perhaps the Navy decided to roll the BBQ smoker out onto the runway and have a picnic, or they rolled those nifty portable blinky X's out and didn't want to have to retrieve them until the show was over.
Anyway, my argument isn't about what the airport should have done for you, but what you should have done for the airport. Proactive dispatching FTW.