All those Ratings

Milesar

Milesar

Well-Known Member
(and endorsements)
Ok, so I am looking into flight training on my own, and just wondering what I need to get. I have my FAR book here, and looked at that for a bit but decided I would ask all of you as well, I’m trying to decipher just what all ratings/endorsements I could/should get to start pursue an aviation career.

I am pretty sure I know most of them (listed here) but just want to run it by. I know you go from Private-Instrument-Commercial, but isn’t there a way to get it so you can work in the MEL endorsements at the same time?

What am I missing?

Private (PPL)
-Private Multi-Engine
Instrument
-Instrument Multi-Engine
Commercial
-Commercial Multi-Engine
Certified Flight Instructor (CFI)
-Multi-Engine
-Instrument Airplane (CFII)
-Single-Engine

Endorsements
High Performance
High Altitude

What is AMEL?

I couldn’t find any other threads on this, so if you know of any, let me know and I’ll shut-it! (I also felt this was more about ratings than flight training, so I put it here)

Thanks!
 
AMEL is aiplane multi engine land.

Flight training is not linear. After private, you could get commercial instead of instrument. By your list's order, it appears that you will get lots of multi engine time, and spend lots of money. If you are flight training on your own, I would suggest doing everything in a single engine because it's simplier and your training will be more cost effective and go faster.

Your flight instructor will want you to do everything in a multi because he will get multi engine time and it will be in his/her best interest. It's too much too early in my opinion and you will be overloaded. Doing it this way will also make you take tests out of increasing difficulty and I think you might en up taking an extra test or two.

Do your multi after instrument, then get single commercial, then multi commercial. AFter that, you can get cfi, then cfii, then mei. That would be my suggestion.
 
Better to look at it this way


Levels:

Private

Commericial

Instructor

ATP

You could have private multi engine (AMEL) with instruments priveleges or a commercial multi with instrument priveleges or even better yet a multi engine instructor with the ability to teach instruments MEI/CFII. Endorsements you just get once. The highest level you could be until reaching 1500TT and a few others reqs for the ATP are CFI/I MEI.

-Jason
 
This is the best order (in my opinion):

Private Single

Instrument

Commerical Single

Commercial Multi Add-on (do both commercial test on the same day)

CFI

CFII

MEI
 
Ok, its starting to come together a bit more... so If I did Multi after my instrument... then went to commercial... I would be able to get my multi commercial when I finish the training. does the multi commercial have a seperate checkridce?

I got my PPL about 4 years ago, have about 100tt, graduated college, so
now just looking at the next set of ratings, and the best way to get them.

My Flight Surgeon said:
You forgot seaplane and tailwheel endorsements.
Click to expand...

Oh, I wish I could justify these! I love "stick and rudder" flying. Maybe I could find some job flying an old DC-3 in africa. Seattle has a seaplane airline... hmmmm :yar:

Thanks for the info
 
THis is the test order I suggest:
Private
instrument
(do your multi training, complex endorsement to fill out the hours requirements)
commerical single
multi commercial instrument
instructor cfi
instructor cfii
mei multi instructor

Sub pilot also suggested this order for a reason. This results in the least amount of tests (and testing fees) and lets you accumulate hours for the single comm. while learning multi. and single comm. Don't bother with the high altitude or high performance unless it is convenient.
 
How do the tailwheel and seaplane endorsements work into the commercial stuff?

Lets say I have my commercial, then get my tailwheel, does this mean I have my commercial tailwheel?
 
a tailwheel endorsement will supplement whatever license you have. You only need this if you actually are going to PIC in a tailwheel. I fly for the airlines and do not even have a tailwheel or seaplane.
 
Milesar said:
How do the tailwheel and seaplane endorsements work into the commercial stuff?

Lets say I have my commercial, then get my tailwheel, does this mean I have my commercial tailwheel?
Click to expand...


I think you need to get some terminology straight to figure all this out so I'll give it a shot....

the first level is the actual pilot's license....there are 3 (not including the student pilot license)....Private, Commercial and ATP

The next level is the Category of aircraft. Examples would be Airplane, Rotorcraft, Airship, etc. etc. etc.

The next level would be the class of aircraft. This would be the Single engine and multi-engine classifications. These come in the Land and Seaplane flavors (i.e. single engine sea, or multi-engine land). Since you're probably planning on an airline career, Land is all you have to worry about.

So when you show up for a checkride, you can take a test for a Certificate and a Category and Class (i.e. Private Pilot, Single Engine, Land), or you can add a category or class to a pilot certificate (i.e. Rotorcraft Class to your Private pilot certificate, or a multi-engine category to your ATP). Generally when you show up for an initial license test, you are taking the test for the license, category, and class. After that any combination of categories and classes can be added to that license.

The next level would be ratings. These apply to the category of aircraft. So when you get your Instrument rating in an airplane, you'll be able to fly single and multi engine airplanes under IFR as long as you don't have any restrictions stating otherwise on your license.

The next (and lowest) level is the endorsements and type ratings (to an extent). These are basically needed to fly special types of airplanes. For exampe something you'll need early in your flying career is a Complex endorsement. You can find the specific requirements (and definition) in the FAR's, but it allows you, after some training, to fly a complex aircraft. FAR 61.31 has all the endorsements you can get and how to get them. An endorsement is a blanket authorization independent of the type of license you have, but you still need to have the proper category and class to operate the airplane.

sooo...if you're still awake.....the most common route by far is:

Private Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land
Instrument Airplane
Commercial Pilot Single Engine Land
Commercial Pilot Multi-Engine Land
Airline Transport Pilot Multi-Engine Land (and sometimes Single Engine Land too).

The endorsements come along the way. If you're doing your private in a 172, there are no extra endorsements necessary. If you're doing your private license in a Seneca, you'll need a Complex endorsement, and a High Performance endorsement before you can Solo and later, take the practical exam. These endorsements are usually part of the natural progression of your training. You need to do at least a portion of your training in a complex airplane for a commercial pilot's license, and you'll get that endorsement then.

For every airline job out there, you'll need a Commercial Multi Engine Land license. Whatever endorsements you have are great, but in the airline environment, your company training basically gives you the endorsements by default (i.e. High Altitude endorsement).

Basically, I wouldn't worry too much about the endorsements, etc. etc. I would worry about how to get to that Commercial Multi Engine Land license. There are quite a few requirements and hoops you have to jump through to get there. That's why Flight Instructors exist...they'll help you through all the hoops and make you a good pilot along the way.

The Seaplane ratings and tailwheel endorsements are essentially worthless from a career progression standpoint, but some of the funnest things I've ever done have been in seaplanes and tailwheel airplanes, so if you get an opportunity to get those, you'll be a better pilot and person for it.

Hope I didn't confuse you more..... :bandit:
 
Launchpad described it perfectly.

My question is why everyone thinks the commerical single is better to get first. From a cost stantpoint instead of renting both an expensive complex single to acquire 15 complex and later on a multi engine for the commercial multi why not just do the initial multi. That allows you to do the single add-on in a non complex single that rents for cheaper. It may take a few more multi hours to get to the 15 hrs but you will get it. You are going to need that multi time later on down the road anyways so why not cut out the single complex rental? Any thoughts?

-Jason
 
ElyJs said:
Launchpad described it perfectly.

My question is why everyone thinks the commerical single is better to get first. From a cost stantpoint instead of renting both an expensive complex single to acquire 15 complex and later on a multi engine for the commercial multi why not just do the initial multi. That allows you to do the single add-on in a non complex single that rents for cheaper. It may take a few more multi hours to get to the 15 hrs but you will get it. You are going to need that multi time later on down the road anyways so why not cut out the single complex rental? Any thoughts?

-Jason
Click to expand...

I've heard this argument as well, and I think it's valid. I think probably the biggest thing is perhaps the progression from small trainers to more and more complex airplanes. I know quite a few students who take a while (up to 10 hours or many more in some cases) just to catch up with a complex single, let alone a multi engine plane. There's no reason why you couldn't do it, but the learning curve is much more extreme. I would say that's probably the main reason.

Nice name by the way. ;) Seems to be a popular name in aviation.
 
ElyJs said:
Launchpad described it perfectly.

My question is why everyone thinks the commerical single is better to get first. From a cost stantpoint instead of renting both an expensive complex single to acquire 15 complex and later on a multi engine for the commercial multi why not just do the initial multi. That allows you to do the single add-on in a non complex single that rents for cheaper. It may take a few more multi hours to get to the 15 hrs but you will get it. You are going to need that multi time later on down the road anyways so why not cut out the single complex rental? Any thoughts?

-Jason
Click to expand...

The flight school I instructed at (141) did the Private Multi after the Private Single, then did the instrument (in a multi) and then the Commercial Multi......lots of multi time, but no Commercial ASEL, so the students had to go get that after they finished their commercial multi. A lot of it has to do with the availability of multi engine airplanes. Schools with them are getting harder and harder to find especially with fuel and insurance prices going through the roof...
 
launchpad said:
Hope I didn't confuse you more.....
Click to expand...
:insane: :insane: :insane: No, Not at all :insane: :insane: :insane:

Really though, that’s a lot of great information that clears up some questions I have had. I'm used to the PPL 172 realm, and that’s about it, so for some reason this stuff is just taking a while to sink in. I'm just waiting for it to click.

Note: I posted the next part in “Member Announcements” it felt appropriate

Milesar said:
So, in another statement, it seems that people get pretty personal on here (JC) and that a lot of people know who does what or is trying to do what in aviation. I really haven’t made my "announcement" on what my aviation plans are, really I've just spent my time poking around leaving sarcastic comments.

I guess I really haven’t felt comfortable saying what I'd like to-do in Aviation because (in the name of Adam Sandler) "they’re all going to laugh at you".
(I'm getting back to topic in a bit)
So, here goes with what I "would like" or would like to aim for...

I don’t like the idea of flying for an airline, actually don’t know if I would like flying a jet. The prop planes and GA scene have always had a larger appeal to me than going to the "majors". All the new technology is really neat, like glass panels and such, but the older stuff tends to capture me a bit more, I like the idea of being able to feel the ailerons move on the other end of the cable.

I like small planes.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am looking for a path in Aviation that consists of, well I don’t know.

Jobs I would like to try one day would be bush flying, or flying seaplanes or how about landing in the snow or on a glacier? Dirt strips, big mountains, canyons? Heck, I don’t know if much of this exists, and in what capacity.

Freight sounds like something I would prefer, and the people who fly it seem pretty darn cool. :nana2:

I have not ruled out the possibility of airlines, or anything else, you never know where you'll go next or where that opportunity will be. Corporate is very intriguing, I like working with other people and people say I have a really good customer service attitude.
Click to expand...

So. I'm also looking to see how tail wheel and seaplane endorsements work into the whole scheme of things (back on topic) :D

Sorry for the long post! But now I'm out in the open about it..
 
I tried to respond to your other thread but it looks like a mod deleted it. Anyhow, here is my response.

I think you can do okay with seaplanes in Alaska. Not really sure how you work your way into such a gig, though. People that go that route aren't the sort that bother with aviation career websites. Or, maybe they don't have high speed in Bethel....

I seem to remember a posting not long ago for air survey in light twins that paid 90K for 20 days a month work. Not a bad gig, if you ask me. I'd rather do that 10 times over than work for a regional.

Seaplane and tailwheel endorsements both take about 10 hours. Neither will get you a job. Experience in type is what it takes to move on. I'm no expert beyond that so maybe somebody else can chime in. Flying banners or gliders could net you some taildragger time. I wanna say an entry level seaplane job could only be found in Alaska.

Good luck. A part of me wants to say you're in the wrong place. That same part of me can't point you in a better direction, though, so welcome to JC....
 
Now you're gonna get me in trouble, like I wasn't already....

Seriously, I'd point you in the right direction if I thought there was one. I've been at this aviation internet thing for a while and I just don't have a better answer.
 
I know two people that go up and fly in Alaska during the summers. The money is pretty good, but it is seasonal and you are expected to fly when the weather is good. How to go about getting one of these jobs? What I have been told is Alaska time counts huge. That may mean you have to instruct in Anchorage for a little while to build that time. The other thing the better outfits are looking for (not Penair or the other outfits that rape pilots) is commitment. They want a pilot that is willing to work on the planes , haul loads at gross and come back summer after summer. Its not the kind of job that you are gonna build time at and move on. (Although I do know one person who flew bush for 3 years and now flys a Pilatus Part 91). Again I am giving secondhand information, maybe others can chime in with a little more firsthand info. I do have to say the pictures and video they bring home after each summer are amazing.

-Jason
 
DE727UPS said:
I tried to respond to your other thread but it looks like a mod deleted it. Anyhow, here is my response.

I think you can do okay with seaplanes in Alaska. Not really sure how you work your way into such a gig, though. People that go that route aren't the sort that bother with aviation career websites. Or, maybe they don't have high speed in Bethel....

I seem to remember a posting not long ago for air survey in light twins that paid 90K for 20 days a month work. Not a bad gig, if you ask me. I'd rather do that 10 times over than work for a regional.

Seaplane and tailwheel endorsements both take about 10 hours. Neither will get you a job. Experience in type is what it takes to move on. I'm no expert beyond that so maybe somebody else can chime in. Flying banners or gliders could net you some taildragger time. I wanna say an entry level seaplane job could only be found in Alaska.

Good luck. A part of me wants to say you're in the wrong place. That same part of me can't point you in a better direction, though, so welcome to JC....
Click to expand...

like DE727UPS said. a seaplane rating and a bunch of float time might get you something up here...but all you really need to worry about is getting your ratings and hours.
 
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