Alaska/Virgin arbitration

wheelsup said:
If that were true everyone would work for Delta and United and no one else. Looking at that chart using your logic one has to wonder why any pilot steps foot into a jetBlue cockpit.
Click to expand...
Thats true but I have flown with one other FO now who was at Alaska prior and as stated have friends wondering the same. I'm just talking about Alaska right now. Their pilots haven't been very happy lately from what I have heard and if they just went "across the street" their career could be a lot better and still be based in SEA.
 
roundout said:
This is a nice idea, but just from my own personal experience I'm going to say it won't make the impact that we mere line pilots think it will. The uber-senior who haven't updated their logbooks in years aren't going anywhere. The most likely to leave are the junior, and, let's face it, they've probably been applying already.

I'd also like to nod my head to the Second Tier pilots of Spirit and Eff Niner whose pay rates are so low they don't even appear on the comparison chart.
Click to expand...
Agree on the senior, semi on the junior. Alaska hiring is weird and from my understanding they have a lot of people who only apply there because of the "home town"team aspect. Not sure how much longer that will help them.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
I suspect it will be hard for everyone in SEA and LAX to look across the ramp and see they can make more after 3 years at Delta than 12 at AK and be based at home almost right out of class. Home town airline only helps recruiting so much. I bet they have a lot leave now. The people I know there are not happy and this was the kick they needed to update the apps.
Click to expand...

Hell, I remember talking to one of @jtrain609's friends that was a new hire, and now she's a three year seniority LAX 737 captain.
 
wheelsup said:
Looks like you got a $30-$40/hr raise for no reason other than merger...yet you complain?!?
Click to expand...

........those words literally straight from management's mouth. Yeah, our union got that.


It doesn't matter what the "raise" is. What matters is 1. market rate, 2. industry standard in terms of pattern bargaining, and 3. rates in comparison to peers. For the record, while it may be a ~31% raise for VX pilots, it's only a ~16% raise for AS pilots, and you can be that this will sew division in the pilot group especially once SLI negotiations and arbitration comes around.

tcco94 said:
I'm curious too.

So with no scope and that rule that only AS can fly 73's, does that mean more of their flying can be contracted out to regionals? I thought scope was a limit on how much flying the regionals could do for the company, pretty much job protection for mainline pilots.

That's how I interpreted it and wondered how the arbitrator could deny such a fundamental part of the contract?
Click to expand...

Because arbitrators aren't going to want to be seen as limiting a company's business model capability. The final ruling basically says that the AS pilot group never really had scope, wasn't a priority for them, and that the current AS regional operation was already "complying" with the ALPA proposal of 76 seats and 86k lbs weight. And that it's best for direct negotiations in the future.

roundout said:
This is a nice idea, but just from my own personal experience I'm going to say it won't make the impact that we mere line pilots think it will. The uber-senior who haven't updated their logbooks in years aren't going anywhere. The most likely to leave are the junior, and, let's face it, they've probably been applying already.

I'd also like to nod my head to the Second Tier pilots of Spirit and Eff Niner whose pay rates are so low they don't even appear on the comparison chart.
Click to expand...

Page 9 of the Award:

"...(1) this is an enterprise that differs markedly, in various respects, from the larger carriers and that, significantly, (2) that difference has been routinely recognized by the parties themselves."

In other words, we work for a second tier carrier.
 
In awarding these increases, we are satisfied that Alaska pilots will be properly ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers."

"There is reason for such relative
juxtaposition, but it is also true that Alaska is not properly considered fully comparable
to American, Delta, United or Southwest."





Kingairer said:
Was this just a contract amalgamation between Virgin and Alaska? Why else would Alaska agree to arbitration vs contract negotiations? When is this contract up?
Click to expand...

Alaska's current 2013 contract required for a merger scenario a JCBA through direct negotiations, mediation, and if all else fails, arbitration. This whole process has simply followed Section 1 of Alaska's contract. Scope, Pay, and Retirement were open and are now finalized, the other sections remain the same. This contract is now through 2020. There is a LOA process to improve section 25 scheduling, but only through direct negotiations. That is the next step.
 
CRJDriver said:
Unfortunately, that is all easier said than done! Just because you work XyZ Major or (U)LCC doesn't mean DL/AA/UA/SWA will call you. I'm surprised they don't, because if they start poaching pilots from their biggest competitor and they have a hard time filling classes, I'm sure it would make a little dent in their operation.
Click to expand...

I've said this over and over on this and other boards: it is difficult to get hired at D/U/A/SW/Alaska. It's difficult to get hired at Blue, spirit, or Frontier. It seems like we forget that sometimes. Yes, a lot of people on this board have been fortunate enough to get "the call" but the number of those who haven't far surpasses the number who have. It isn't just as easy as showing up at class and saying "here I am."

We keep thinking that the pilot shortage is in full effect, but that's only true at the regional level RIGHT NOW. I'm hopeful that changes soon but who knows.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
It doesn't matter what the "raise" is. What matters is 1. market rate,
Click to expand...

Our MEC chair was the one who started using that term in relation to section 6 bargaining and I really wish he hadn't. It doesn't mean anything, although it looks great in a power point slide. This is a perfect example of why it's a problem. You guys got market rate for what the arbitrator saw as your "market. It totally dismisses the same airplane, same type of ops theory that allows a smaller property to leverage the rates from a bigger one.
 
wheelsup said:
If that were true everyone would work for Delta and United and no one else. Looking at that chart using your logic one has to wonder why any pilot steps foot into a jetBlue cockpit.
Click to expand...

1. That chart isn’t comparing apples to apples. There are a lot of assumptions baked into it, and it isn’t clear what they are. (It doesn’t appear that our retirement is actually included at all, but others appear to have it included.)

2. We are in the end stages of our negotiations.

3. That’s comparing new contracts to old contracts. All of those airlines got those rates within the last 2-3 years. Like I said, we are negotiating, and we won’t be far away from those rates once we finish.
 
CRJDriver said:
Because we have culture... duh!

:sarcasm:
Click to expand...

I know that you’re being sarcastic, but honestly money isn’t everything. Once we get a contract, we won’t be far off from everyone else. Don’t buy into the negativity. This is a good place to work, with a bright future. We have ALPA hard at work to bring us up to par.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
In awarding these increases, we are satisfied that Alaska pilots will be properly ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers."

"There is reason for such relative
juxtaposition, but it is also true that Alaska is not properly considered fully comparable
to American, Delta, United or Southwest."
Click to expand...

Which is comical, seeing as how Southwest has been the carrier dragging down the rest of the industry for virtually their entire existence. For most of the company's history, Southwest trailed Alaska's rates by a wide margin.
 
BobDDuck said:
Our MEC chair was the one who started using that term in relation to section 6 bargaining and I really wish he hadn't. It doesn't mean anything, although it looks great in a power point slide. This is a perfect example of why it's a problem. You guys got market rate for what the arbitrator saw as your "market. It totally dismisses the same airplane, same type of ops theory that allows a smaller property to leverage the rates from a bigger one.
Click to expand...

The panel destroyed our ALPA argument with these two simple sentences:

"A fifth place ranking also recognizes the fact that Alaska occupies a similar position in virtually every business metric-operating revenue, net income, number of departures, available seats, and number of destinations served."

and

"It is true that Alaska earns record pretax margins relative to the industry average, but that metric alone does not suggest that pilot pay should be the equivalent of the industry leaders."
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The panel destroyed our ALPA argument with these two simple sentences:

"A fifth place ranking also recognizes the fact that Alaska occupies a similar position in virtually every business metric-operating revenue, net income, number of departures, available seats, and number of destinations served."

and

"It is true that Alaska earns record pretax margins relative to the industry average, but that metric alone does not suggest that pilot pay should be the equivalent of the industry leaders."
Click to expand...

To play devil's advocate, the NMB tends to look at things the same way, fair or not. So it's likely that a traditional section 6 process would have ended in the same result, and probably after a much longer period of time.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Which is comical, seeing as how Southwest has been the carrier dragging down the rest of the industry for virtually their entire existence. For most of the company's history, Southwest trailed Alaska's rates by a wide margin.
Click to expand...
You're just saying that because you never had the privilege to buy a 737 type rating the old fashioned way and earn the job, they were going to give it to you.

Welcome back.
 
roundout said:
I've said this over and over on this and other boards: it is difficult to get hired at D/U/A/SW/Alaska. It's difficult to get hired at Blue, spirit, or Frontier. It seems like we forget that sometimes. Yes, a lot of people on this board have been fortunate enough to get "the call" but the number of those who haven't far surpasses the number who have.
Click to expand...

For now. The landscape is about to change.

In 2018:
UA 1,000
AA 900
SWA 800
DL (not sure 800-1000+?)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
To play devil's advocate, the NMB tends to look at things the same way, fair or not. So it's likely that a traditional section 6 process would have ended in the same result, and probably after a much longer period of time.
Click to expand...
Hey, when did you come back?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top